4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Wayne Morellini · December 9th, 2004, 12:26 AM

Where did you read that, I am unobjective on the idea, a three chip Alatasens insread yes, yes, yes, with pixel shift like the XL1 and DVX100 has that canbe used to get much higher res, the IBIS struggles with colour global, maybe a new version of the IBIS5B or C with increased fill, but the A, I don't know?

Actually go over the dvx100 mod thread and look at our discussion over there at the moment. That camera will record a HD frame much bigger than 720p ;) If the same thing were done on a three chip 720p camera we would get much more than 1080p likely with better accuracy (definetly better sensitivity) than bayer 1080. If we went for it on a three chip 1080p camera we would end up well and truelly in SHD territory (exactly where we need to be). Very good thinking.

Steve what do you think, oh great camera Guru?

Wayne.

Jason Rodriguez · December 9th, 2004, 01:07 AM

Xpress Pro HD:

read about it here:

http://www.avid.com/company/releases...rohd_prod.html

So first FCP, and now AVID (which also gives Windows people access to DVCProHD)-maybe Premiere Pro next?. I don't think they're using Quicktime, but at least you now have access to native DVCProHD on Windows, so you could theoretically go back-and-forth losslessly by using a tape deck and firewire and not doing any effects till your final edit (so that you can transfer the native bit-stream to tape without any renders and generation loss).

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · December 9th, 2004, 01:09 AM

(take note I'm not Steve, nor a camera guru ;) )

Really......how can I say this......coming from you dear Wayne...

Such a GREAT IDEA!

really good, pixel shift.I should have thought about it.....

Richard Mellor · December 9th, 2004, 09:37 AM

the 49.95 upgrade to hd, on avid express pro, is pretty cool too.

John Nagle · December 9th, 2004, 11:52 AM

Obin,

If you are around please let us know how you are getting on with the SI3300.

Eliot Mack · December 9th, 2004, 09:37 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : Xpress Pro HD:

read about it here:

http://www.avid.com/company/releases...rohd_prod.html

So first FCP, and now AVID (which also gives Windows people access to DVCProHD)-maybe Premiere Pro next?. I don't think they're using Quicktime, but at least you now have access to native DVCProHD on Windows, so you could theoretically go back-and-forth losslessly by using a tape deck and firewire and not doing any effects till your final edit (so that you can transfer the native bit-stream to tape without any renders and generation loss). -->>>

This is pretty interesting. Current plans are to make the source code for writing the DNxHD format freely available, so this looks like a good format to transfer raw Bayer capture data to. Softimage XSI can already render to the DNxHD format, which is a serious space saver for a multilayered composite.

Obin Olson · December 10th, 2004, 06:35 PM

sorry guys no news at the moment..I will be back soon

Wayne Morellini · December 11th, 2004, 08:44 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn : (take note I'm not Steve, nor a camera guru ;) )

Really......how can I say this......coming from you dear Wayne...

really good, pixel shift.I should have thought about it..... -->>>

You can say, the "usual, charming, brilliant idea" from me, if you want to. Don't get the ideas wrong, I just like to find the best and simplest solutions to problems, even if they are a bit radical, as long as they get the job done better. Actually I have been thinking of pixel shift like solutions for years, with all these bayer cameras I just never thought of cross applying it here. Best thing is that the cost of applying should work out to be cents per camera head (as you are just sticking one chip in a slightly different position, everything else on the head stays the same).

Actually, the reason I mention it, is to give any camera manufacture reading this that wants to do 3 chip, like Sumix, a nudge in the right direction ;)

For David, and other editing folks. There are a whole heap of different pixel formats, pixel shifts etc that can be used. Maybe it is a good idea to have a simple pixel definition descriptor in the editor to define new formats that the editor can use to process them.

John

Where did you find out about that 3 chip camera?

Wayne Morellini · December 11th, 2004, 11:22 AM

Takes time sometimes, it was sitting right under my nose.

I think there is a simple way to get much more than 2:1 lossless, though I don't know of computing power requirements:

It is over at the technical thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...986#post251986

Ben Syverson · December 11th, 2004, 03:01 PM

This is directly from Farhad at Sumix:

Quote:

We have made significant progress with Altasense camera. It will have powerful FPGA with power PC processor inside. It will also have 32 Mega bytes of image buffer memory. The interface will be Giga-Ethernet. We are aiming for 60 fps with loss-less compression. The good news is that components cost will be low. We hope to provide low introductory price, even lower than what we thought earlier. The negative news is that March is the new date for release.

KA-POW!

Then:

Quote:

We are also working on 3-sensor camera based on IBIS5-M CMOS imager. IBIS5 has global shutter and we believe Cypress which bought Fillfactory will make significant improvement in IBIS5. Our optic people already have good low cost solution for prism to be used in this camera. This camera will also have Giga-E interface. We hope cost of Giga-E storage devices will decrease as they are used more in datacenters. Please let us know what you think

What I think? I think dat's a spicy meatball.

Farhad added in a subsequent email that their lossless compression is doing about 2:1, except in very noisy images. Apparently they can go up to 35fps even without compression, so 24fps with 2:1 compression should be a breeze in terms of data rate.

He also clarified that the 32 megs of RAM is to "smooth out hiccups and control the frame rate exactly. Also it is used for compression and other future image processing." Future image processing.... Mmmmm....

That's all for now,
Ben Syverson

Jason Rodriguez · December 11th, 2004, 05:25 PM

Hey Ben,

BTW, is that 60fps at 1920x1080?

Also at what bit-rate?

I suppose you could get 60fps 1920x1080 at 12-bits packed over Gigabit ethernet, but just curious to see if that's what they're in fact doing, or if they' still plan on recording 8-bits per pixel.

Ben Syverson · December 11th, 2004, 08:22 PM

60fps at 12bit 1920x1080. No comprimise.

Wayne Morellini · December 11th, 2004, 11:29 PM

Great

Ben can you email them my compression idea over at the technical thread, with 32MB data chunks they should be able to achieve more than 2:1. It looks like they can software update the programmable controller with it after release.

Ben can you get a pricing on the three chips, and any details on the M version of the IBIS5?

My guess is that they are not being slack and are puting in everything practical. Well I am willing to live with the new release date as they are going to lower price and improve performance.

New IBIS sensor, New IBIS sensor, yeah, I've been asking about this hopefully it will fix up problems. This is also excelent news for Drake, as it should be compatible. That is probably why the present IBIS5 sensor has been hiotting below $200 oem.

They must have dropped the straight firewireb, due to the lack on motherboards.

I wonder if they plan twin gigabit cameras in the future to handle higher speeds?

Ben Syverson · December 11th, 2004, 11:41 PM

Higher speeds? Why? If you need more than 60fps at 1920x1080 at 12bits, you should wait a few years. :)

I think they dropped firewire B for simplicity -- they have other scientific sources that definitely need Gigabit Ethernet, so I think they went with that first.

Pricing is SUPER low -- they said to quote you around "$3K." I don't know what the M version of the IBIS-5 is like, but I have to be honest -- I'm all about the Altasens. I don't give a lick about the 3-chip IBIS, even though that's likely to be a super-smooth camera. They understand what we want and need, and will only do it if the image quality is good enough.

Wayne, what exactly is your idea for better than 2:1? Remember that this is 2:1 in terms of the Bayer, not the final RGB. If you can get better than 2:1 on a Bayer image, I'd love to hear how....

All the best,

- ben

Wayne Morellini · December 12th, 2004, 12:13 AM

Well here is the ibis5 page on the M (MONO version, so I don't know if it is an upgrade to the A, but I have sent off for another data sheet).

I have to run out the door (re-edit: so much for that idea), but from a glance at the specs it seems the big difference is high fill factor sensor cell the rest of he specs don't seem overly spectacular).

Here are the relavent links to the tech:

http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/produ...bis5/ibis5.htm
http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/techn.../high_fill.htm
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6225670

This paper, at a glance, seems that the future IBIS's will be good competition for he Altasens (but don't know how much carries to IBIS5).

http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/techn...f/Dierickx.pdf

Other insteresting stuff, but no indication it is on the IBIS5:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/6,545,303

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6011251

http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/techn...blications.htm

I knew there was a cheap 3chip prism out there, from my calculations a prism could be able to be made cheap.

December 9th, 2004, 01:07 AM	#2297
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	AVID now has DVCProHD support Xpress Pro HD: read about it here: http://www.avid.com/company/releases...rohd_prod.html So first FCP, and now AVID (which also gives Windows people access to DVCProHD)-maybe Premiere Pro next?. I don't think they're using Quicktime, but at least you now have access to native DVCProHD on Windows, so you could theoretically go back-and-forth losslessly by using a tape deck and firewire and not doing any effects till your final edit (so that you can transfer the native bit-stream to tape without any renders and generation loss).

December 9th, 2004, 09:37 AM	#2299
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	avid express pro the 49.95 upgrade to hd, on avid express pro, is pretty cool too.

December 9th, 2004, 09:37 PM	#2301
Eliot Mack Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 37	Re: AVID now has DVCProHD support <<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : Xpress Pro HD: read about it here: http://www.avid.com/company/releases...rohd_prod.html So first FCP, and now AVID (which also gives Windows people access to DVCProHD)-maybe Premiere Pro next?. I don't think they're using Quicktime, but at least you now have access to native DVCProHD on Windows, so you could theoretically go back-and-forth losslessly by using a tape deck and firewire and not doing any effects till your final edit (so that you can transfer the native bit-stream to tape without any renders and generation loss). -->>> This is pretty interesting. Current plans are to make the source code for writing the DNxHD format freely available, so this looks like a good format to transfer raw Bayer capture data to. Softimage XSI can already render to the DNxHD format, which is a serious space saver for a multilayered composite.

December 11th, 2004, 11:22 AM	#2304
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Sudden Revelation. Takes time sometimes, it was sitting right under my nose. I think there is a simple way to get much more than 2:1 lossless, though I don't know of computing power requirements: It is over at the technical thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...986#post251986

December 9th, 2004, 12:26 AM	#2296
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Where did you read that, I am unobjective on the idea, a three chip Alatasens insread yes, yes, yes, with pixel shift like the XL1 and DVX100 has that canbe used to get much higher res, the IBIS struggles with colour global, maybe a new version of the IBIS5B or C with increased fill, but the A, I don't know? Actually go over the dvx100 mod thread and look at our discussion over there at the moment. That camera will record a HD frame much bigger than 720p ;) If the same thing were done on a three chip 720p camera we would get much more than 1080p likely with better accuracy (definetly better sensitivity) than bayer 1080. If we went for it on a three chip 1080p camera we would end up well and truelly in SHD territory (exactly where we need to be). Very good thinking. Steve what do you think, oh great camera Guru? Wayne.

December 9th, 2004, 01:09 AM	#2298
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	(take note I'm not Steve, nor a camera guru ;) ) Really......how can I say this......coming from you dear Wayne... Such a GREAT IDEA! really good, pixel shift.I should have thought about it.....

December 9th, 2004, 11:52 AM	#2300
John Nagle Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 28	Obin, If you are around please let us know how you are getting on with the SI3300.

December 10th, 2004, 06:35 PM	#2302
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	sorry guys no news at the moment..I will be back soon

December 11th, 2004, 08:44 AM	#2303
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn : (take note I'm not Steve, nor a camera guru ;) ) Really......how can I say this......coming from you dear Wayne... really good, pixel shift.I should have thought about it..... -->>> You can say, the "usual, charming, brilliant idea" from me, if you want to. Don't get the ideas wrong, I just like to find the best and simplest solutions to problems, even if they are a bit radical, as long as they get the job done better. Actually I have been thinking of pixel shift like solutions for years, with all these bayer cameras I just never thought of cross applying it here. Best thing is that the cost of applying should work out to be cents per camera head (as you are just sticking one chip in a slightly different position, everything else on the head stays the same). Actually, the reason I mention it, is to give any camera manufacture reading this that wants to do 3 chip, like Sumix, a nudge in the right direction ;) For David, and other editing folks. There are a whole heap of different pixel formats, pixel shifts etc that can be used. Maybe it is a good idea to have a simple pixel definition descriptor in the editor to define new formats that the editor can use to process them. John Where did you find out about that 3 chip camera?

December 11th, 2004, 05:25 PM	#2306
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey Ben, BTW, is that 60fps at 1920x1080? Also at what bit-rate? I suppose you could get 60fps 1920x1080 at 12-bits packed over Gigabit ethernet, but just curious to see if that's what they're in fact doing, or if they' still plan on recording 8-bits per pixel.

December 11th, 2004, 08:22 PM	#2307
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	60fps at 12bit 1920x1080. No comprimise.

December 11th, 2004, 11:29 PM	#2308
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Great Ben can you email them my compression idea over at the technical thread, with 32MB data chunks they should be able to achieve more than 2:1. It looks like they can software update the programmable controller with it after release. Ben can you get a pricing on the three chips, and any details on the M version of the IBIS5? My guess is that they are not being slack and are puting in everything practical. Well I am willing to live with the new release date as they are going to lower price and improve performance. New IBIS sensor, New IBIS sensor, yeah, I've been asking about this hopefully it will fix up problems. This is also excelent news for Drake, as it should be compatible. That is probably why the present IBIS5 sensor has been hiotting below $200 oem. They must have dropped the straight firewireb, due to the lack on motherboards. I wonder if they plan twin gigabit cameras in the future to handle higher speeds?

December 11th, 2004, 11:41 PM	#2309
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Higher speeds? Why? If you need more than 60fps at 1920x1080 at 12bits, you should wait a few years. :) I think they dropped firewire B for simplicity -- they have other scientific sources that definitely need Gigabit Ethernet, so I think they went with that first. Pricing is SUPER low -- they said to quote you around "$3K." I don't know what the M version of the IBIS-5 is like, but I have to be honest -- I'm all about the Altasens. I don't give a lick about the 3-chip IBIS, even though that's likely to be a super-smooth camera. They understand what we want and need, and will only do it if the image quality is good enough. Wayne, what exactly is your idea for better than 2:1? Remember that this is 2:1 in terms of the Bayer, not the final RGB. If you can get better than 2:1 on a Bayer image, I'd love to hear how.... All the best, - ben

December 12th, 2004, 12:13 AM	#2310
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Well here is the ibis5 page on the M (MONO version, so I don't know if it is an upgrade to the A, but I have sent off for another data sheet). I have to run out the door (re-edit: so much for that idea), but from a glance at the specs it seems the big difference is high fill factor sensor cell the rest of he specs don't seem overly spectacular). Here are the relavent links to the tech: http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/produ...bis5/ibis5.htm http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/techn.../high_fill.htm http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6225670 This paper, at a glance, seems that the future IBIS's will be good competition for he Altasens (but don't know how much carries to IBIS5). http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/techn...f/Dierickx.pdf Other insteresting stuff, but no indication it is on the IBIS5: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...S=PN/6,545,303 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/6011251 http://www.fillfactory.com/htm/techn...blications.htm I knew there was a cheap 3chip prism out there, from my calculations a prism could be able to be made cheap.