4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Wayne Morellini · November 2nd, 2004, 12:58 PM

Regular crew, what do you think of this framegrabber:

http://www.isgchips.com/Templates/t_framegrabber.htm

I looked it up on the off chance it might offer a lot more for the price of the present Epix model. It has 32MB buffer, 1M FPGA that you can put user functions into, but the price is nearly $1000. Isn't that the price of the 64-bit grabbers?

Wayne.

Wayne Morellini · November 2nd, 2004, 01:09 PM

I thought DNG was single frame, but you must mean sequence of single frames, my appologies. Well, as we are trying to do things cheap as well, it would be good to use high quality audio off the motherboard with reference sound tracks recorded in sequence with the frame (each frame follwed by the matching periode of sound). Understanding only a few main boards can record descent quality sound. It is unimportant but probably can save hundreds or thousands compared to a sepcialist recorder (then again it is one more thing to go wrong).

Valeriu Campan · November 2nd, 2004, 03:34 PM

Wayne,
I the high end audio circles it is a NO NO to record sound on the host computer, even with an internal dedicated audio board (the A/D conversion is better to be done outside the host machine). Various sources can interfere and affect the quality. I don't say is not convenient, camcorders, do it, but the jury is still out. I stand to be corected.

Brad Abrahams · November 2nd, 2004, 03:39 PM

This is what you need for your audio field recording :)

http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php

Jason Rodriguez · November 2nd, 2004, 03:48 PM

Actually I'm thinking of attaching one of these to the camera for "on camera" recording:

http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html

Aaron Shaw · November 2nd, 2004, 10:12 PM

Hey guys,

Have you seen this CMOS camera yet? It looks like one heck of a product though it would only provide 1280x720.

I think this is probably a fairly expensive camera but since I couldn't find a price I figured I would post anyway.

http://vfm.dalsa.com/products/features/1m28.asp?r=0

Aaron Shaw · November 3rd, 2004, 12:08 AM

Sorry to post again immediately. Not sure if I should have just edited my previous post or not. Feel free to do with this as you see fit mods.

I was searching randomly for CMOS and CCD cameras and I ran across a BUNCH of them that I don't think we have discussed (I may be entirely wrong about that). I have no idea what sort of prices we are talking about for these. I suppose that would require talking to the actual companies themselves as no one lists prices. Here's what I found (for what it is worth):

*Note: some of these ARE CCD cameras. I'm not entirely convinced of the superiority of CMOS.....

1mp b+w 1" CCD camera
2/3" 1280x1024 CMOS camera 29fps
1" CCD 1600x1200 camera
1280x1024 30fps CMOS camera
1.3 mp 25fps CMOS camera
1920x1080 1" CCD 32fps camera!
1504x1128 CMOS camera 1000fps max!
1mp CCD camera 48fps
4mp CMOS camera 96fps!
1.3mp CMOS camera 500fps!

I'm sure a lot of these are expensive cameras but I thought I would post just in case one of them might prove useful to someone out there. What do you guys think?

Michael Pappas · November 3rd, 2004, 02:18 AM

Here is a 30fps version that is 12bit from Dalsa.......

http://vfm.dalsa.com/selector/prodin...ID=DS-1x-01M30

Wayne Morellini · November 3rd, 2004, 03:06 AM

Valeriu:

I have had an ninterest in computer audio systems for a few yaers (have a Envy24 based system here (but only for consumer HM). The great thing about the project is it's intended flexibility to fit a number of price ranges, that is why I mentioned the mainboard audio stuff for the real low end systems, but the idea is to use whatever fits your budget.

On quality I wrote a long post in the other "viper" thread, I think. Indeed most of the stuff that has been offered on main boards is rubbish for recording, half the descent consumer sound cards are only good for home theatre, not for recording (but maybe better than a DP150). To answer the question of which systems, I haven't kept track of motherboards, but I think there will be a couple that can top 80db (maybe even 100db) SNR A weighted (just keeping it simple for everybody here) for stereo input, that's good enough for Video and doco work, or even cheap film. As far as cards go, EMU has just pulled a nice trick, actually delivering nearly the quoted 120db SNR, I expect more cards to match that in future and external USB2.0 sound modules to eventually get there too, that is good enough for film recording (though nowhere near true 24-bit 144db, but not many recording studios would be able to record that accuratelly, let alone cinema theatre systems play it). Past that price you are probably better getting a seperate sound recording device.

Many inernal recording issues seems to have been solved since the introduction of the Lynx to reach these levels. So for the budget minded I think it is a possibility (though for cinema production I personally would prefer something that accurately recorded the 48Khz, 16/18 bit format, which means at the very least 96db SNR and other good specs). Of course some external conditioning/balancing might be needed on MB ports.

Nice recording links. I liked that Core PDA device, I don't have time to read it all, but there doesn't seem to be any stats, benhmarks, or other audio analysis with it. It will be interesting to see how well it performs eventually. But for this whole project the one downfall has allways been professional external controlls for cameras, let alone sound recording.

Wayne Morellini · November 3rd, 2004, 03:35 AM

Aarron thanks for the camera links, though I won't be able to get through them before leaving. The first dalsa one is a 1024*1024 camera, Sony has something simular for around $1500, probably because it doesn't match up with 720p spec.

The problem is that many people have stopped discussing new cameras/manufacturers a while ago. A number have been posted that have been ignored. This has happened on a number of issues, and people have got stuck in the mud, with present systems (that's really all we can do for the moment while the software is beta'd on one manufacturers cameras). But I think it is time that we did look at, and list on a web site, all the options, maybe in a new thread, or the technical thread, maybe with pricing. We have the wiki, if Rob S would like to allow people to link all suitable cameras on a special wiki page that could be done. This could be done with all hardware issues, I personally have many links in my book mark of things people have posted, and that is not even all of them.

If anybody would like to look into doing it, the technical thread is:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=28781

If you go to machinevision online they have a database of cameralink (including cameralink USB/Gige) products, if you go to the frame grabber companies (like Epix) they have a list of camera companies that use there framegrabbers.

Jason Rodriguez · November 3rd, 2004, 07:20 AM

I think the reason that we're "stuck" with one sensor is that among these industrial camera manufacturers, the Altasens is the only chip that was designed from the ground up as a professional HD camera chip, and is being incorporated in many high-priced professional HD camera systems, including those from Ikegami, JVC, and Kinetta.

Eric Gorski · November 3rd, 2004, 12:58 PM

its also the reason its so expensive :(

Barend Onneweer · November 3rd, 2004, 01:03 PM

Something I couldn't find - or maybe I overlooked it, what lens mount can we expect to find on the 2/3" industrial camera's with the Altasense chip?

Although I guess that when you put together a system with that particular sensor, you'd be able to budget for an adapter to PL mount or ARRI Mount...

Bar3nd

Obin Olson · November 3rd, 2004, 01:23 PM

I have been sick. sorry for not talking much..

I am now starting to think about going with 8bit because of the issues with display rate and datarate with 10-12bit files and the problems with editing ...I do have a new version of CineLInk that is working much better but I have not had time to test as I was sick ;( ..in the next few days expect some updates !

I have a problem..I need a board that has AGP on it because the onboard video from the ITX and micro boards WILL NOT WORK..I used one. it sucked bad.

ideas / links gang?

Michael Pappas · November 3rd, 2004, 02:13 PM

When is this Altasens 3560 CMOS do to be released?

Is the Altasens ProCamHD 2560 released or is it going to come out when the 3560 is released.

Looking at the specs at both Altasens chips chips below.......

If one was to stick with 720P, wouldn't the ProCamHD 2560 be just fine?

Also 2560 is at a lower cost I would think too?

----------------------------------------
ProCamHD 3560 - 2/3", 1936 x 1086 pixel high speed, low noise and low power iSoC for high definition TV cameras

ProCamHD 2560 - 1/2", 1280 x 1024 pixel with ProCamHD's performance advantages PLUS interoperability between HDTV, analog TV (NTSC/PAL) and SXGA resolution.

November 3rd, 2004, 12:08 AM	#1957
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	this may be irrelevant but.... Sorry to post again immediately. Not sure if I should have just edited my previous post or not. Feel free to do with this as you see fit mods. I was searching randomly for CMOS and CCD cameras and I ran across a BUNCH of them that I don't think we have discussed (I may be entirely wrong about that). I have no idea what sort of prices we are talking about for these. I suppose that would require talking to the actual companies themselves as no one lists prices. Here's what I found (for what it is worth): *Note: some of these ARE CCD cameras. I'm not entirely convinced of the superiority of CMOS..... 1mp b+w 1" CCD camera 2/3" 1280x1024 CMOS camera 29fps 1" CCD 1600x1200 camera 1280x1024 30fps CMOS camera 1.3 mp 25fps CMOS camera 1920x1080 1" CCD 32fps camera! 1504x1128 CMOS camera 1000fps max! 1mp CCD camera 48fps 4mp CMOS camera 96fps! 1.3mp CMOS camera 500fps! I'm sure a lot of these are expensive cameras but I thought I would post just in case one of them might prove useful to someone out there. What do you guys think?

November 3rd, 2004, 01:03 PM	#1963
Barend Onneweer Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 111	Something I couldn't find - or maybe I overlooked it, what lens mount can we expect to find on the 2/3" industrial camera's with the Altasense chip? Although I guess that when you put together a system with that particular sensor, you'd be able to budget for an adapter to PL mount or ARRI Mount... Bar3nd __________________ www.raamw3rk.net digital storytelling and vfx

November 3rd, 2004, 02:13 PM	#1965
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Altasens question!!!!!!!!! When is this Altasens 3560 CMOS do to be released? Is the Altasens ProCamHD 2560 released or is it going to come out when the 3560 is released. Looking at the specs at both Altasens chips chips below....... If one was to stick with 720P, wouldn't the ProCamHD 2560 be just fine? Also 2560 is at a lower cost I would think too? ---------------------------------------- ProCamHD 3560 - 2/3", 1936 x 1086 pixel high speed, low noise and low power iSoC for high definition TV cameras ProCamHD 2560 - 1/2", 1280 x 1024 pixel with ProCamHD's performance advantages PLUS interoperability between HDTV, analog TV (NTSC/PAL) and SXGA resolution.

November 2nd, 2004, 12:58 PM	#1951
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Regular crew, what do you think of this framegrabber: http://www.isgchips.com/Templates/t_framegrabber.htm I looked it up on the off chance it might offer a lot more for the price of the present Epix model. It has 32MB buffer, 1M FPGA that you can put user functions into, but the price is nearly $1000. Isn't that the price of the 64-bit grabbers? Wayne.

November 2nd, 2004, 01:09 PM	#1952
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I thought DNG was single frame, but you must mean sequence of single frames, my appologies. Well, as we are trying to do things cheap as well, it would be good to use high quality audio off the motherboard with reference sound tracks recorded in sequence with the frame (each frame follwed by the matching periode of sound). Understanding only a few main boards can record descent quality sound. It is unimportant but probably can save hundreds or thousands compared to a sepcialist recorder (then again it is one more thing to go wrong).

November 2nd, 2004, 03:34 PM	#1953
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	Wayne, I the high end audio circles it is a NO NO to record sound on the host computer, even with an internal dedicated audio board (the A/D conversion is better to be done outside the host machine). Various sources can interfere and affect the quality. I don't say is not convenient, camcorders, do it, but the jury is still out. I stand to be corected.

November 2nd, 2004, 03:39 PM	#1954
Brad Abrahams Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 65	This is what you need for your audio field recording :) http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php

November 2nd, 2004, 03:48 PM	#1955
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Actually I'm thinking of attaching one of these to the camera for "on camera" recording: http://www.core-sound.com/HighResRecorderNews.html

November 2nd, 2004, 10:12 PM	#1956
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Hey guys, Have you seen this CMOS camera yet? It looks like one heck of a product though it would only provide 1280x720. I think this is probably a fairly expensive camera but since I couldn't find a price I figured I would post anyway. http://vfm.dalsa.com/products/features/1m28.asp?r=0

November 3rd, 2004, 02:18 AM	#1958
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Here is a 30fps version that is 12bit from Dalsa....... http://vfm.dalsa.com/selector/prodin...ID=DS-1x-01M30

November 3rd, 2004, 03:06 AM	#1959
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Valeriu: I have had an ninterest in computer audio systems for a few yaers (have a Envy24 based system here (but only for consumer HM). The great thing about the project is it's intended flexibility to fit a number of price ranges, that is why I mentioned the mainboard audio stuff for the real low end systems, but the idea is to use whatever fits your budget. On quality I wrote a long post in the other "viper" thread, I think. Indeed most of the stuff that has been offered on main boards is rubbish for recording, half the descent consumer sound cards are only good for home theatre, not for recording (but maybe better than a DP150). To answer the question of which systems, I haven't kept track of motherboards, but I think there will be a couple that can top 80db (maybe even 100db) SNR A weighted (just keeping it simple for everybody here) for stereo input, that's good enough for Video and doco work, or even cheap film. As far as cards go, EMU has just pulled a nice trick, actually delivering nearly the quoted 120db SNR, I expect more cards to match that in future and external USB2.0 sound modules to eventually get there too, that is good enough for film recording (though nowhere near true 24-bit 144db, but not many recording studios would be able to record that accuratelly, let alone cinema theatre systems play it). Past that price you are probably better getting a seperate sound recording device. Many inernal recording issues seems to have been solved since the introduction of the Lynx to reach these levels. So for the budget minded I think it is a possibility (though for cinema production I personally would prefer something that accurately recorded the 48Khz, 16/18 bit format, which means at the very least 96db SNR and other good specs). Of course some external conditioning/balancing might be needed on MB ports. Nice recording links. I liked that Core PDA device, I don't have time to read it all, but there doesn't seem to be any stats, benhmarks, or other audio analysis with it. It will be interesting to see how well it performs eventually. But for this whole project the one downfall has allways been professional external controlls for cameras, let alone sound recording.

November 3rd, 2004, 03:35 AM	#1960
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Aarron thanks for the camera links, though I won't be able to get through them before leaving. The first dalsa one is a 1024*1024 camera, Sony has something simular for around $1500, probably because it doesn't match up with 720p spec. The problem is that many people have stopped discussing new cameras/manufacturers a while ago. A number have been posted that have been ignored. This has happened on a number of issues, and people have got stuck in the mud, with present systems (that's really all we can do for the moment while the software is beta'd on one manufacturers cameras). But I think it is time that we did look at, and list on a web site, all the options, maybe in a new thread, or the technical thread, maybe with pricing. We have the wiki, if Rob S would like to allow people to link all suitable cameras on a special wiki page that could be done. This could be done with all hardware issues, I personally have many links in my book mark of things people have posted, and that is not even all of them. If anybody would like to look into doing it, the technical thread is: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=28781 If you go to machinevision online they have a database of cameralink (including cameralink USB/Gige) products, if you go to the frame grabber companies (like Epix) they have a list of camera companies that use there framegrabbers.

November 3rd, 2004, 07:20 AM	#1961
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	I think the reason that we're "stuck" with one sensor is that among these industrial camera manufacturers, the Altasens is the only chip that was designed from the ground up as a professional HD camera chip, and is being incorporated in many high-priced professional HD camera systems, including those from Ikegami, JVC, and Kinetta.

November 3rd, 2004, 12:58 PM	#1962
Eric Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Western Oregon Posts: 138	its also the reason its so expensive :(

November 3rd, 2004, 01:23 PM	#1964
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I have been sick. sorry for not talking much.. I am now starting to think about going with 8bit because of the issues with display rate and datarate with 10-12bit files and the problems with editing ...I do have a new version of CineLInk that is working much better but I have not had time to test as I was sick ;( ..in the next few days expect some updates ! I have a problem..I need a board that has AGP on it because the onboard video from the ITX and micro boards WILL NOT WORK..I used one. it sucked bad. ideas / links gang?