4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Michael Pappas · October 30th, 2004, 10:03 PM

Ben did you say the this Cmos will allow powering of the camera from the bus?

I'm aiming for 720p for production and for effects work I would go higher. What are we talking in ballpark prices for these.

Ben Syverson · October 30th, 2004, 10:14 PM

The Altasens model that Sumix is developing is bus-powered. The gigabit ethernet models could theoretically be powered by PoE (power over ethernet), but that wouldn't work for laptops.

I think the ballpark for these cams is US$4k - 5.5k. I haven't heard price info from Sumix, but that's the range Steve/Silicon Imaging has quoted...

Jason Rodriguez · October 30th, 2004, 10:37 PM

Quote:

The amazing thing about this chip is that it has the ability to shoot at both 1080p and 720p, while maintaining the same FOV

NOT according to the datasheet from Altasens. The 720p-full-FOV mode is for monochrome only, or for a 3CCD camera that can dedicate each chip for red, green, and blue. Sorry about that, if you look back over the thread we were all a little bummed about that slight detail too.

Ben Syverson · October 30th, 2004, 10:53 PM

Oh, busted. Nevermind. :)

Wayne Morellini · October 31st, 2004, 02:25 AM

Markus, when you said an optical solution for a 35mm adaptor, which solution did you use, a condensoe relay lense without projection plain, or are you talking about the Optexint angadaphd? With what ever adaptor you are using, are you getting true 35mm DOF and FOV, or only FOV, and are you getting more brigtness downconverting to 2/3rd, then with straight 35mm film?

Marto, when everybody but me answers it is ussually an indicatgion that it was discussed before a lot, and is in one of the 4 threads. The chip below is more costly, so nobody has built a camera on it.

USB has a large CPU overhead hit, it is better to check for cameras based on Firewire. Gige, Cameralink, or UWB (Ultra Wide band wireless standard for USB2.0 and Firewire, next year).

I have posted Philips firewire IBIS5 cameras in the technical threads too. Some of the variouse Phillips modles have multiple interfaces on them (including VGA preview).

<<<-- Originally posted by Marto Lautz : waht budget are we talking about for a setup like yours I'm maybe willing to spend the mony anyway and then change to some thing better if I can snik the cmos in the production budget. -->>>

I think I read somewhere or a reasonably cheap price for the Sumix Altasens. I forget but I think it might have been somewhere between $2K-3K.

Wayne Morellini · October 31st, 2004, 02:40 AM

Welcome Michael:

Before you use a laptop, remember that many laptop drives are small and very data rate limited. This limts the max frame, bits, and shutter (if the camera does not memory buffer it). You would have to pick a laptop with a drive and drive interface with enough datarate, or with high interface and replace the little slow drive. 108024fps is likely to be beyond many laptops. Also you need to get a laptop with the right chips to run Giga-bit Ethernet and Firewireb at full speed.

So for laptop it will be much better to get a firewire or Gige (Gigabit Ethernet) camera with on board lossless compression, buffered, packed, to reduce this data rate, and size on disk, to under half. As you can see we are still sorting out what to do with non buffered, non packed, non compressed desktops. But Sumix is supposed to introduce (and SI) an compressed firewire camera eventually, and with the right preview software (they are doing their own capture) it would be a perfect solution for laptops.

We have discussed the KH-F870U from JVC. the original reference article said the price was to be under $2000, and we speculated that it must be $20, 000 instead. The only problem is that I've contacted JVC and they say it doesn't exist, or don't reply. The camera deosn't seem crash hot in range compared to the new altalsens, do you have any information on it?

support denies all existence of the

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :
What about the KH-F870Ufrom JVC. Or is this way over priced?

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101390&itempath=&feature_id=01
Michael Pappas -->>>

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :
First question I have:
What would it take to get 720P 10bit at 30fps and 24fps. Can a laptop be used for this? What brand cameras are out there that are proven. -->>>

Wayne Morellini · October 31st, 2004, 02:51 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : NOT according to the datasheet from Altasens. The 720p-full-FOV mode is for monochrome only, or for a 3CCD camera that can dedicate each chip for red, green, and blue. Sorry about that, if you look back over the thread we were all a little bummed about that slight detail too. -->>>

I thought they used some sort of complimentary/primary hybrid colour processing to get over this problem with bayer cameras, from the pdf posted here (or in the technical thread) sometime ago?

Soeren Mueller · October 31st, 2004, 07:44 AM

Hi Barend!

That's exactly what I was thinking about too. How long could the cables be with GigE? And how "thick" would they be? Eg. for using it on a remote head on a crane or perhaps even on a steadycam... if the cables are really long and flexible this wouldnt be a problem at all.
And although the image quality with 8 bits can be or is great too the posibilities of what you can do with the image in post are quite limited in contrast to what's possible with 10 or better 12bit!
This is a much more "film like freedom" imho... (and that's why I'm still interested in the DVX100 mod from another thread here too ;o)

Cheers

Barend Onneweer · October 31st, 2004, 09:17 AM

GigE or 1000baseT over copper cables has a listed maximum cable length of 100 meters (CAT6). The cables tend to be very flexible and not much thicker than your usual UTP cable.

Another solution is to use Fibre Channel. An Ethernet to Fibre converter goes for around 150 dollars. You'd need a Fibre card in your recording machine, but then you can use up to 40 km of cable ;-) Should be enough to get to the nearest wallsocket... (That's a joke of course).

Bar3nd

Michael Pappas · October 31st, 2004, 11:34 AM

Hello Wayne!

My requirements are pretty low compared to others on purpose. All I need is:

720P
8-bit
24fps @ 1/48th

On purpose I am keeping my requirements at this level. My personal feeling this is perfect for narrative story telling. And since the video won't be compressed when first captured like Varicam-Cinealta does, there is a little room to work with it.

I would have to assume a laptop would work at this level? Am I wrong?

Michael Pappas

Adrian White · October 31st, 2004, 12:48 PM

I recently spoke to a guy at Norpix (they make the streampix software). He claims that you don not necessarily need a raid to store the images. You can apparently use scsi hard drives that run at 10,000rpm.

Also could anyone tell me if the imperx 1920*1080 camera would be suitale with its 1" interline transfer CCD, it has a "c" mount. Would the optics be good for this since it has the bigger sensor?

The camera has minimum illumination of 1 lux and has a electronic shutter. www.imperx.com

Steve Nordhauser · October 31st, 2004, 02:54 PM

Markus:
I believe that what you are doing is correct, for you. A well informed decision is in knowing where the steep price steps are and finding the level that is right for you. If you can run your recordings over USB 2.0 or firewire into a laptop (maybe you already have it) you are there for a cheap price. If that level of performance is unacceptable and you go to 10 bit or 1080 or both, you need to know the system costs and increase in complexity - the total cost of the decision.

Ben:
The Altasens 720p mode is an odd varient on subsampling. Normally, if you just subsample, you get every second, third, fourth line. The smallest step would be 960x540. On the Altasens, there is a 1.5x subsample. From our manual:

Quote:

Subsampling can be used to readout fewer pixels in the imager at increased frame rates. Four subsampling modes to provide 1.5X, 2X, 3X and 4X lower resolution in each the vertical and horizontal directions:

Due to the use of bayer patterns, only the 3x subsampling cab be used to produce a color image

SUBSAMPLING xF3 00 bits 7-4: vertical subsampling modebits 3-0: horizontal subsampling mode 0 = reading of all rows/columns (full resolution) 1 = not reading every third row/column (2/3 resol.) 2 = reading every second row/column (1/2 resol.) 3 = reading every third row/column (1/3 resol.)

I have suggested that a custom Bayer algorithm *might* be able to be used in the 2/3 mode. A serious amount of work would have to be used to see what artifacts you would get since the lines would be:

RGGRRGGR.......
GGBBGGBG......
GGBBGGBG......
RGGRRGGR.......
RGGRRGGR.......

It seems a bit for ripe for color problems (blocks of 4 red and blue and no others nearby) but it *might* work.

Michael Pappas · October 31st, 2004, 03:16 PM

Steve Nordhauser do you have systems that can do very good good 720P 8-bit - 24fps @ 1/48th second cinematography?

Michael Pappas

Steve Nordhauser · October 31st, 2004, 03:19 PM

Michael, yes. Email me off this list steve@siliconimaging.com and we can talk about the options. I try to keep sales separate from information to the list. Thanks.

Michael Pappas · October 31st, 2004, 04:17 PM

Hi Ben... Thanks for answering my questions.... And everyone else too!

How much bigger is a 10bit 720 capture @ 24fps.. Just curious? vs my setup I would like?

Ben I would love to have full res at 12bit 4:4:4, but it wont be a portable system and it must be 100% portable. Until the higer res 1080P 10bit+ can be portable, the 720 8 bit will have to do....

In studio it can be full res, and that's why I wondered about Altsens since if it can do 720 8bit for portable and when in studio go to the higher res for effects etc work if needed.

For HDTV work 8 bit is good, since all the broadcast content are not anywhere near as good as they could be.

Michael Pappas

October 31st, 2004, 09:17 AM	#1914
Barend Onneweer Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 111	GigE or 1000baseT over copper cables has a listed maximum cable length of 100 meters (CAT6). The cables tend to be very flexible and not much thicker than your usual UTP cable. Another solution is to use Fibre Channel. An Ethernet to Fibre converter goes for around 150 dollars. You'd need a Fibre card in your recording machine, but then you can use up to 40 km of cable ;-) Should be enough to get to the nearest wallsocket... (That's a joke of course). Bar3nd __________________ www.raamw3rk.net digital storytelling and vfx

October 31st, 2004, 12:48 PM	#1916
Adrian White Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: leicester uk Posts: 26	I recently spoke to a guy at Norpix (they make the streampix software). He claims that you don not necessarily need a raid to store the images. You can apparently use scsi hard drives that run at 10,000rpm. Also could anyone tell me if the imperx 1920*1080 camera would be suitale with its 1" interline transfer CCD, it has a "c" mount. Would the optics be good for this since it has the bigger sensor? The camera has minimum illumination of 1 lux and has a electronic shutter. www.imperx.com __________________ how far can we push these cameras?

October 31st, 2004, 03:19 PM	#1919
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Michael, yes. Email me off this list steve@siliconimaging.com and we can talk about the options. I try to keep sales separate from information to the list. Thanks. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

October 30th, 2004, 10:03 PM	#1906
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Ben did you say the this Cmos will allow powering of the camera from the bus? I'm aiming for 720p for production and for effects work I would go higher. What are we talking in ballpark prices for these.

October 30th, 2004, 10:14 PM	#1907
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	The Altasens model that Sumix is developing is bus-powered. The gigabit ethernet models could theoretically be powered by PoE (power over ethernet), but that wouldn't work for laptops. I think the ballpark for these cams is US$4k - 5.5k. I haven't heard price info from Sumix, but that's the range Steve/Silicon Imaging has quoted...

October 30th, 2004, 10:53 PM	#1909
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Oh, busted. Nevermind. :)

October 31st, 2004, 02:25 AM	#1910
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Markus, when you said an optical solution for a 35mm adaptor, which solution did you use, a condensoe relay lense without projection plain, or are you talking about the Optexint angadaphd? With what ever adaptor you are using, are you getting true 35mm DOF and FOV, or only FOV, and are you getting more brigtness downconverting to 2/3rd, then with straight 35mm film? Marto, when everybody but me answers it is ussually an indicatgion that it was discussed before a lot, and is in one of the 4 threads. The chip below is more costly, so nobody has built a camera on it. USB has a large CPU overhead hit, it is better to check for cameras based on Firewire. Gige, Cameralink, or UWB (Ultra Wide band wireless standard for USB2.0 and Firewire, next year). I have posted Philips firewire IBIS5 cameras in the technical threads too. Some of the variouse Phillips modles have multiple interfaces on them (including VGA preview). <<<-- Originally posted by Marto Lautz : waht budget are we talking about for a setup like yours I'm maybe willing to spend the mony anyway and then change to some thing better if I can snik the cmos in the production budget. -->>> I think I read somewhere or a reasonably cheap price for the Sumix Altasens. I forget but I think it might have been somewhere between $2K-3K.

October 31st, 2004, 02:40 AM	#1911
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Welcome Michael: Before you use a laptop, remember that many laptop drives are small and very data rate limited. This limts the max frame, bits, and shutter (if the camera does not memory buffer it). You would have to pick a laptop with a drive and drive interface with enough datarate, or with high interface and replace the little slow drive. 108024fps is likely to be beyond many laptops. Also you need to get a laptop with the right chips to run Giga-bit Ethernet and Firewireb at full speed. So for laptop it will be much better to get a firewire or Gige (Gigabit Ethernet) camera with on board lossless compression, buffered, packed, to reduce this data rate, and size on disk, to under half. As you can see we are still sorting out what to do with non buffered, non packed, non compressed desktops. But Sumix is supposed to introduce (and SI) an compressed firewire camera eventually, and with the right preview software (they are doing their own capture) it would be a perfect solution for laptops. We have discussed the KH-F870U from JVC. the original reference article said the price was to be under $2000, and we speculated that it must be $20, 000 instead. The only problem is that I've contacted JVC and they say it doesn't exist, or don't reply. The camera deosn't seem crash hot in range compared to the new altalsens, do you have any information on it? support denies all existence of the <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : What about the KH-F870Ufrom JVC. Or is this way over priced? http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101390&itempath=&feature_id=01 Michael Pappas -->>> <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : First question I have: What would it take to get 720P 10bit at 30fps and 24fps. Can a laptop be used for this? What brand cameras are out there that are proven. -->>>

October 31st, 2004, 02:51 AM	#1912
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : NOT according to the datasheet from Altasens. The 720p-full-FOV mode is for monochrome only, or for a 3CCD camera that can dedicate each chip for red, green, and blue. Sorry about that, if you look back over the thread we were all a little bummed about that slight detail too. -->>> I thought they used some sort of complimentary/primary hybrid colour processing to get over this problem with bayer cameras, from the pdf posted here (or in the technical thread) sometime ago?

October 31st, 2004, 07:44 AM	#1913
Soeren Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Düsseldorf, Germany / Denver, CO Posts: 137	Hi Barend! That's exactly what I was thinking about too. How long could the cables be with GigE? And how "thick" would they be? Eg. for using it on a remote head on a crane or perhaps even on a steadycam... if the cables are really long and flexible this wouldnt be a problem at all. And although the image quality with 8 bits can be or is great too the posibilities of what you can do with the image in post are quite limited in contrast to what's possible with 10 or better 12bit! This is a much more "film like freedom" imho... (and that's why I'm still interested in the DVX100 mod from another thread here too ;o) Cheers

October 31st, 2004, 11:34 AM	#1915
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Hello Wayne! My requirements are pretty low compared to others on purpose. All I need is: 720P 8-bit 24fps @ 1/48th On purpose I am keeping my requirements at this level. My personal feeling this is perfect for narrative story telling. And since the video won't be compressed when first captured like Varicam-Cinealta does, there is a little room to work with it. I would have to assume a laptop would work at this level? Am I wrong? Michael Pappas

October 31st, 2004, 03:16 PM	#1918
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Steve Nordhauser do you have systems that can do very good good 720P 8-bit - 24fps @ 1/48th second cinematography? Michael Pappas

October 31st, 2004, 04:17 PM	#1920
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Hi Ben... Thanks for answering my questions.... And everyone else too! How much bigger is a 10bit 720 capture @ 24fps.. Just curious? vs my setup I would like? Ben I would love to have full res at 12bit 4:4:4, but it wont be a portable system and it must be 100% portable. Until the higer res 1080P 10bit+ can be portable, the 720 8 bit will have to do.... In studio it can be full res, and that's why I wondered about Altsens since if it can do 720 8bit for portable and when in studio go to the higher res for effects etc work if needed. For HDTV work 8 bit is good, since all the broadcast content are not anywhere near as good as they could be. Michael Pappas