4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Ben Syverson]

Hey Michael,

Welcome on board! :) I agree that this technology is extremely exciting -- from my perspective, it could change quite a lot in the industry within the next 12-18 months...

Now, to answer your question... The datarates at the sizes you mention are extremely reasonable:
720p @ 24fps, 10bit: 26.36 Megabytes (MB, not Mb) per second
720p @ 30fps, 10bit: 32.95 MB/sec

It's within the realm of USB2 and Firewire400, but most of the newer cameras will be using Firewire800, Gigabit Ethernet, or CameraLink (ugh).

The clips you mention were shot by Obin (I believe), using a CameraLink-based camera tethered to a desktop computer.

As far as I know, I'm the only one here using a laptop for recording -- everyone else is using desktops or custom hardware. Personally, I think laptops are the clear way to go. Desktops are too big, and custom rigs are too much trouble and too difficult to upgrade.

Sumix is working on a FW800 camera using the Altasens 3560, the same sensor that is going into the Kinetta. Of course, the Kinetta will cost about 10X (literally) the price of the Sumix camera. The Sumix is the cam I'm excited about. The biggest advantage of FW800 is that you can make the camera bus-powered, for laptop shooting. In the meantime, I'm shooting with the same sensor as Markus and Rai, although I'm not quite as jazzed about it as they are.

Any other questions?

- ben

[Marto Lautz]

Ben I found this camera it is using IBIS5a and have firewire interface.

http://www.isgchips.com/Templates/t_camera.htm

I don't know witch cmos is better altacens or IBIS5a
would be this camers sonthing you would recomend?
thanks
Hi michael I'm in my beginins stages of my project and willing to share any information I know.
check sumix.com and micron.com

[Ben Syverson]

Dear Marto:

Altasens :)

Sincerely,
Ben Syverson

[Marto Lautz]

are you using IBIS5a ? by firewire?

[Marto Lautz]

I got it, Altasens
dont get mad my friend

[Ben Syverson]

I went mad long ago. :)

I'm using an IBIS-5A over USB2... (The Sumix 150-C)

[Marto Lautz]

have you check the link I posted it is a IBIS5a with firewire any opinions about it?
tahnks
sorry about my spelling it is a figth I have with my self too.

[Ben Syverson]

Marto, I checked the link, but my opinion of any IBIS-5A based camera is pretty low right now, with the Altasens just around the corner. If you absolutely can't wait, then do what you gotta do -- otherwise, hang on for another couple months... From what I've seen, there's a world of difference between the IBIS and the Altasens.

[Marto Lautz]

definatly I will have it into acount but I have a big project coming out the next month that I would like to do it digital.
waht budget are we talking about for a setup like yours I'm maybe willing to spend the mony anyway and then change to some thing better if I can snik the cmos in the production budget.
thanks

[Jason Rodriguez]

Hey Guys,

Nice to see things heating up here :-)

BTW, I thought I'd bring up another interesting point again that kind of fell off quickly about a month ago.

DNG (Digital Negative Format)-While Photoshop was the only supporter of this open RAW format when it was announced last month, there have now been a bunch of new commercial converts to the list. Phase One is going to be releasing their RAW conversion software using the .DNG format, as well as some photo-mangement solutions.

So the message is this: If you don't want to fuss with RAW bayer demosaicers, don't! Take your RAW files and put a .DNG header on them (TIFF-EP with a couple extra tags specific to DNG, easy stuff really), and you can open them up with Photoshop's bayer converter, Phase One's bayer converter (soon), and with these two on board I'm sure we'll see Bibble come on board, and Yarc Plus, Dcraw, etc., etc.

I've used Phase One's software, and I must say it's very, very nice stuff. Kind of like operating a telecine suite on your footage (for right now it's from my Canon D60).

So anyways, this isn't hard to do, and it might make our lives a whole lot easier. I know that Scott said that you could take the .IHD files his software outputs and translate those to .DNG if you want, but also if you simply record the RAW information off the camera, you only have to put the .DNG header on it for it to be recognized by the conversion software, the only caveat being that these will have to be sequential files, and not a big binary RAW file or an .IHD that has multiple images embedded within it. So there might be a hit on drive performance, right now it's too early to say.

So anyways, .DNG-I think this is a really good format for us to embrace that can make our lives much easier on the raw-bayer conversion end of things.

[Marto Lautz]

I see waht Ben was saying.
http://www.altasens.com/products.html#2

Altasens 3560
anyone know the price range.
thanks

[Michael Pappas]

What is the difference between AltaSens ProCamHD 3560 and ProCamHD 2560 Looking at the 2560, it seems that this is well beyond where these chips have been before and I assume it's smaller file sizes as well on footage. Will the 3560 do the same as a 2560 , but if you ever need to use higher res shots for effects work it's always there to shoot with. Or are these two chips very different. What will the price be on a ProCamHD 2560.

What about the KH-F870Ufrom JVC. Or is this way over priced?

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/f...&feature_id=01

Michael Pappas

[Steve Nordhauser]

Some random stuff:
The Altasens is real - we have had working cameras for about 2 months. Production volumes of the parts is the big problem. They are going through another mask revision (fine tuning) but that can add as much as 8 weeks of delay in shipment. *sigh* Keep in mind that if someone buys an Altasens from us now, we will ship a Micron now with the same interface and package and swap later for no charge.

The good news is that we will probably be releasing the gigabit version at the same time as the production units are ready. This is a sweet spot for transmission - 1920 x 1080 x 30fps x 1.5bytes/pix (packed) = 94MB/sec packed or 75MB/sec at 24fps. This will be fine on both camera link and gigabit ethernet. Anyone know for sure what continuous video rate firewire 800 can sustain?

On the IBIS5A lines, have you tried slowing the clock down a lot? Like in half. If the problem is the speed limited analog stage, the lines will go away at lower speeds. What we saw was the amplifier slew rates were low so as you shifted from a high level on a green to an adjacent red with a low level, the amp would move slowly and look like there was a partial red value. Really messes up the colors.

[Ben Syverson]

Anyone know for sure what continuous video rate firewire 800 can sustain?

Uh... 800 Megabits a second. Unlike USB2, all Firewire standards have sustained bitrates.

What is the difference between AltaSens ProCamHD 3560 and ProCamHD 2560

The 3560 is the only chip worth looking at in my opinion. The amazing thing about this chip is that it has the ability to shoot at both 1080p and 720p, while maintaining the same FOV. It does this by skipping pixels on the sensor. So if you want the ultimate in quality, you can shoot 1080, but if you want to conserve disk space or increase your frame rate, you can shoot 720p!

- ben

[David Newman]

Only 80% of Firewire's bandwidth is dedicated to isochronous transfers (what you would be using.) For this type of data the theoretically maximum transfer rate is 80MBytes/s over 800Mb/s Firewire.