4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Rob Scott · June 11th, 2004, 08:25 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher :
What I'm trying to figure out is, just how do i get my footage into Mac and FCP for editing, as I'm sick of PC non-stable systems. -->>>

OK, I'm not sure when this would be possible (it would require a 4- or 8-drive array inside a small enough box, etc.) ... But consider this possibility:

1 - Self-contained camera unit that captures to raw files
2 - Download the (large) raw files to your Mac
3 - Overnight run processing software to do Bayer filtering, color correction, gamma, etc. and compress to Aspect HD
4 - Delete the raw files and use the Aspect HD files as your "masters"

Obin Olson · June 11th, 2004, 08:35 AM

Mike lets stay in the hear and now ..I have a camera system...it shoots NOW ...it's what this thread is about... I understand what you want for a system but I am not selling a system. I am building one and if you wanted one well you could just follow in my footsteps and build one from what I am doing...lets just keep this on-track and about what we need NOW for our camera system(s) so we can go SHOOT and stop the idle chit-chat

Steve Nordhauser · June 11th, 2004, 08:40 AM

I agree with both of you. Rob needs to plan the future a bit since he is considering a large outlay of time (Rob, you've got mail) and needs a roadmap to cover where he is going. The work needs to be methodical, building up. Obin, you are right that basic functionality will be all that is required for a first usable release.

Mike Metken · June 11th, 2004, 08:45 AM

Obin,

agree. I just wanted to stress the fact that inexpensive field recording is available now straight into your NLE. The camera based recorder is further down the road.

Rob,

I think that Aspect HH only works with Windows and it is 8 bit. Prospect HD is 10 bit but for the next 4 months will only be sold packaged with Boxx RT.

Mike

Rob Scott · June 11th, 2004, 08:54 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Metken :
I think that Aspect HH only works with Windows and it is 8 bit. -->>>

Crap. Wasn't thinking about that. What about DVCPRO HD for FCP? Can you get that codec separately?

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve
...needs a roadmap to cover where he is going. The work needs to be methodical, building up. -->>>

Exactly. I'm going to start in Windows, with just basic CameraLink capture, preview, Bayer and output to 16-bit TIFF. Period.

But I'm trying to choose cross-platform tools so that the software could be easily ported to Mac OS X and Linux. I'm also going to try to develop it a modular fashion that parts of it could be used in embedded "firmware" inside a camera box itself.

(Unfortunately, IIRC, the CameraLink SDK supports Mac OS at all. Just Windows and Linux.)

Obin Olson · June 11th, 2004, 09:00 AM

that codec is 8 bit

Mike! c'mon man are you going to drag your AVID onto the set with all this software loading the system and try and hack a recording system out of it?? this is getting silly..we are NOT going to use our NLE computer TOWER to capture with...I am building a VERY small "capture" box that is FAR cheaper then my NLE system is and MUCH better for this task!!

Rob I was up till 4am last night reading shit and it sure looks like you could (in the future) build a box with a FPGA that could be programmed to capture and spit out image files...don't let this stray you from the path if BASIC software..but think how awesome that would be in the future..no PC at all jsut camera FPGA system and disk drives!

Mike Metken · June 11th, 2004, 09:10 AM

Rob,

DVCPRO HD is 8 bit also. I don't think that Panasonic would sell it separately, maybe only as some super expensive hardware solution.

10 bit gets expensive. When Prospect HD becomes available it may be $5K for the software alone. David Newman would know better.

I'd be satisfied with 8 bit Aspect HD. It is 4:2:2, up to 1440x1080p. You get the same or better quality than CineAlta recording. Major studo film productions have used that.

Obin,

I don't want to drag a computer to the set either. But you need a large monitor anyway. How are you going to hook it up to your camera?

Mike

Obin Olson · June 11th, 2004, 09:16 AM

8bit sucks, what you see is what you get with 8bit 10bit is alot more like film you can push it in post ...we need to stay with 10bit UNLESS we want to shoot at a high framerate then we can use 8bit for more fps recording if needed

Mike Metken · June 11th, 2004, 09:19 AM

Obin,

If you want 10 bit, then Mac with FCP HD is the best. Boxx RT with Prospect HD is over $25K.

Mike

Obin Olson · June 11th, 2004, 09:24 AM

Mike FYI can open and color correct with combustion after effects etc and then downrez and compress for editing in premiere pro

Rob Lohman · June 11th, 2004, 12:55 PM

Obin: I thought we always needed to shoot at higher framerates
due to the rolling shutter? Or can we fix this in some other way?

What did you find in regards to FPGA solution you are talking
about? Rob and myself have been talking a bit about FPGA
through e-mail.

Rob Scott · June 11th, 2004, 01:10 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Obin: I thought we always needed to shoot at higher framerates
due to the rolling shutter? Or can we fix this in some other way?
-->>>

This is AIUI ("As I Understand It") ...

You can shoot at a standard frame rate (24 fps). Reading out at the maximum possible speed takes far less than 1/24 of a second, so you put "blanking" time between frames. This simulates a standard 1/48 second shutter speed (or faster) when you are shooting 24 fps.

I calculate that reading a frame from the chip actually takes about 1/70 second. Breaking this down into decimals ...

1/70 sec = 0.0143 sec
1/24 sec = 0.0417 sec

So, to capture at 24 fps you do the following steps ...

capture a frame in 0.0143 seconds
blank for 0.0274 seconds
capture the next frame ... etc.

Does this sound right, Steve?

Steve Nordhauser · June 11th, 2004, 01:16 PM

Although it is possible to adjust the vertical blanking time somewhat, what you proposed hasn't been attempted yet. It might take some firmware changes in the camera. What Obin was proposing is based on the rolling shutter artifact. Each line is sequentially read from top to bottom. That means that there is a temporal difference on any image of one frame time from the top line to the bottom. The faster you go, the less the difference. Obin wants to readout at twice the frame rate he needs and toss every other frame. This will get him the desired rate with no timing adustments but reduce the single frame time in half.

I will have to think about what Rob suggested though - extending vertical blanking for a full frame time.....hmmmm.

Rob Scott · June 11th, 2004, 01:23 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser :
Obin wants to readout at twice the frame rate he needs and toss every other frame. -->>>

OK, then, it would be ... ?

capture a frame in 0.0143 seconds
blank for 0.0065 sec
capture a frame in 0.0143 seconds - throw it away
blank for 0.0065 sec
et cetera...

I think that would be equivalent. I will have to read the documentation and figure out what resolution it's possible to program the readout and blanking times.

Rob Lohman · June 11th, 2004, 01:35 PM

Somehow I have a very hard time understanding this rolling
shutter thing. I understand how you normally want to wait and
capture a frame to get a certain frame rate.

I was however perhaps incorrectly assuming that since this is
all digital I would simply get a frame in the frame grabbers
buffer. I thought that was the main reason it was there. In
other words, asks for 24 fps and you get a buffer that gets
filled with information 24 times a second.

How to sync all of this is a question indeed.

June 11th, 2004, 08:40 AM	#153
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	I agree with both of you. Rob needs to plan the future a bit since he is considering a large outlay of time (Rob, you've got mail) and needs a roadmap to cover where he is going. The work needs to be methodical, building up. Obin, you are right that basic functionality will be all that is required for a first usable release. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 11th, 2004, 12:55 PM	#161
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Obin: I thought we always needed to shoot at higher framerates due to the rolling shutter? Or can we fix this in some other way? What did you find in regards to FPGA solution you are talking about? Rob and myself have been talking a bit about FPGA through e-mail. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

June 11th, 2004, 01:10 PM	#162
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Obin: I thought we always needed to shoot at higher framerates due to the rolling shutter? Or can we fix this in some other way? -->>> This is AIUI ("As I Understand It") ... You can shoot at a standard frame rate (24 fps). Reading out at the maximum possible speed takes far less than 1/24 of a second, so you put "blanking" time between frames. This simulates a standard 1/48 second shutter speed (or faster) when you are shooting 24 fps. I calculate that reading a frame from the chip actually takes about 1/70 second. Breaking this down into decimals ... 1/70 sec = 0.0143 sec 1/24 sec = 0.0417 sec So, to capture at 24 fps you do the following steps ... capture a frame in 0.0143 seconds blank for 0.0274 seconds capture the next frame ... etc. Does this sound right, Steve?

June 11th, 2004, 01:16 PM	#163
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Although it is possible to adjust the vertical blanking time somewhat, what you proposed hasn't been attempted yet. It might take some firmware changes in the camera. What Obin was proposing is based on the rolling shutter artifact. Each line is sequentially read from top to bottom. That means that there is a temporal difference on any image of one frame time from the top line to the bottom. The faster you go, the less the difference. Obin wants to readout at twice the frame rate he needs and toss every other frame. This will get him the desired rate with no timing adustments but reduce the single frame time in half. I will have to think about what Rob suggested though - extending vertical blanking for a full frame time.....hmmmm. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 11th, 2004, 01:23 PM	#164
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Obin wants to readout at twice the frame rate he needs and toss every other frame. -->>> OK, then, it would be ... ? capture a frame in 0.0143 seconds blank for 0.0065 sec capture a frame in 0.0143 seconds - throw it away blank for 0.0065 sec et cetera... I think that would be equivalent. I will have to read the documentation and figure out what resolution it's possible to program the readout and blanking times.

June 11th, 2004, 08:25 AM	#151
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : What I'm trying to figure out is, just how do i get my footage into Mac and FCP for editing, as I'm sick of PC non-stable systems. -->>> OK, I'm not sure when this would be possible (it would require a 4- or 8-drive array inside a small enough box, etc.) ... But consider this possibility: 1 - Self-contained camera unit that captures to raw files 2 - Download the (large) raw files to your Mac 3 - Overnight run processing software to do Bayer filtering, color correction, gamma, etc. and compress to Aspect HD 4 - Delete the raw files and use the Aspect HD files as your "masters"

June 11th, 2004, 08:35 AM	#152
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Mike lets stay in the hear and now ..I have a camera system...it shoots NOW ...it's what this thread is about... I understand what you want for a system but I am not selling a system. I am building one and if you wanted one well you could just follow in my footsteps and build one from what I am doing...lets just keep this on-track and about what we need NOW for our camera system(s) so we can go SHOOT and stop the idle chit-chat

June 11th, 2004, 08:45 AM	#154
Mike Metken Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 73	Obin, agree. I just wanted to stress the fact that inexpensive field recording is available now straight into your NLE. The camera based recorder is further down the road. Rob, I think that Aspect HH only works with Windows and it is 8 bit. Prospect HD is 10 bit but for the next 4 months will only be sold packaged with Boxx RT. Mike

June 11th, 2004, 08:54 AM	#155
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Metken : I think that Aspect HH only works with Windows and it is 8 bit. -->>> Crap. Wasn't thinking about that. What about DVCPRO HD for FCP? Can you get that codec separately? <<<-- Originally posted by Steve ...needs a roadmap to cover where he is going. The work needs to be methodical, building up. -->>> Exactly. I'm going to start in Windows, with just basic CameraLink capture, preview, Bayer and output to 16-bit TIFF. Period. But I'm trying to choose cross-platform tools so that the software could be easily ported to Mac OS X and Linux. I'm also going to try to develop it a modular fashion that parts of it could be used in embedded "firmware" inside a camera box itself. (Unfortunately, IIRC, the CameraLink SDK supports Mac OS at all. Just Windows and Linux.)

June 11th, 2004, 09:00 AM	#156
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	that codec is 8 bit Mike! c'mon man are you going to drag your AVID onto the set with all this software loading the system and try and hack a recording system out of it?? this is getting silly..we are NOT going to use our NLE computer TOWER to capture with...I am building a VERY small "capture" box that is FAR cheaper then my NLE system is and MUCH better for this task!! Rob I was up till 4am last night reading shit and it sure looks like you could (in the future) build a box with a FPGA that could be programmed to capture and spit out image files...don't let this stray you from the path if BASIC software..but think how awesome that would be in the future..no PC at all jsut camera FPGA system and disk drives!

June 11th, 2004, 09:10 AM	#157
Mike Metken Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 73	Rob, DVCPRO HD is 8 bit also. I don't think that Panasonic would sell it separately, maybe only as some super expensive hardware solution. 10 bit gets expensive. When Prospect HD becomes available it may be $5K for the software alone. David Newman would know better. I'd be satisfied with 8 bit Aspect HD. It is 4:2:2, up to 1440x1080p. You get the same or better quality than CineAlta recording. Major studo film productions have used that. Obin, I don't want to drag a computer to the set either. But you need a large monitor anyway. How are you going to hook it up to your camera? Mike

June 11th, 2004, 09:16 AM	#158
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	8bit sucks, what you see is what you get with 8bit 10bit is alot more like film you can push it in post ...we need to stay with 10bit UNLESS we want to shoot at a high framerate then we can use 8bit for more fps recording if needed

June 11th, 2004, 09:19 AM	#159
Mike Metken Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 73	Obin, If you want 10 bit, then Mac with FCP HD is the best. Boxx RT with Prospect HD is over $25K. Mike

June 11th, 2004, 09:24 AM	#160
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Mike FYI can open and color correct with combustion after effects etc and then downrez and compress for editing in premiere pro

June 11th, 2004, 01:35 PM	#165
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Somehow I have a very hard time understanding this rolling shutter thing. I understand how you normally want to wait and capture a frame to get a certain frame rate. I was however perhaps incorrectly assuming that since this is all digital I would simply get a frame in the frame grabbers buffer. I thought that was the main reason it was there. In other words, asks for 24 fps and you get a buffer that gets filled with information 24 times a second. How to sync all of this is a question indeed. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors