4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Adrian White]

I'm one of the least technically knowledgeable guys on thes boards and have a couple of questions for you guys. Regarding the Imperx camera that I posted on a couple of weeks ago: I'm presuming this is 4:4:4? Does this mean that if have a black magic design board which can capture this video, will it be able to output at 10bit 4:2:2? I mention this as this is the current FCP 4 max.

Secondly since the interface for the camera link appears to be for PC, how will I go about getting the images into a MAC?

Regarding storage, is a raid necessary? I know it wouldn't be as convenient be I have see 300gb external hard disk drives? which would give about 45min uncompressed storage per drive, if my calculations are correct.

The imperx camera seems to have a c-mount as standard, which I presume means 16mm? They mention an F-mount adaptor. Does this mean I could connect Nikon F-mout stills camera lenses?

Finally, do think it would be better to stay with a PC (premiere pro) NLE or try and get it into FCP 4?

In a nutshell, assume I'm using a low cost black magic design capture board with a destination NLE of adobe premiere pro, what processes, software, file conversion?, etc are necessary to get the image from the camera into the NLE.


Any opinions very welcome.

[Richard Mellor]

obin if you want to build a agus35 .I have a link to one I completed . I think all you would need is a step down ring. the agus35 is made with 50mm filter rings, a plcx lens and a $23 dollar piece of ground glass from optosigma I bought the cannon 50mm 1.4 on ebay for $45


www.dvinfo.net/media/mellor

[Rob Lohman]

Obin: how do you have the chip set up now? What lens is in front
and how is it connected to your PC? Can you post a picture of the
"camera" with everything connected etc.

Can you also please take a look at this FAQ on how to make your
links working? Thanks.

[Laurence Maher]

check it out

C-mount to 35mm slr lens adapters for $65 bucks !!!!!!

Canon
Nikon
Olympus
Minolta
Pentax K
Universal

:)

[Obin Olson]

www.dv3productions.com/test_images/IMG_2432.jpg
www.dv3productions.com/test_images/IMG_2436.jpg
www.dv3productions.com/test_images/IMG_2434.jpg

this is so close it's SICK...I see now that the MAIN issue we have on our hands stopping this from being an EASY to use and EASY to build system is ......yyuuppp.......SOFTWARE.......I wish I was a code writer!!!!!! this thing TOTALY works but we NEED some software! ROB and ROB?? please Rob?? :)

took me 3 hours to teardown that 16mm and mount the 1300 camera inside! I could now use it on a tripod and put a cine mattebox on it etc!

I see no issue with using c mount lenses. C mount is what the bolex uses and this camera is alot like that...also a plus is the cost is VERY low and they don't seem to breath at all unlike a 35mm still camera lens does...I can even use a follow focus on this rig ... plus I love how fast the c-mounts are f1.6!! Try buying a video zoom that fast...who wants a zoom anyway...IMOH zooms are for TV news guys ;)

[Jason Rodriguez]

Hey Obin,

Is that a custom front end on the camera? Also were you able to still use the viewfinder with a through-the-lens setup without losing any light to the sensor?

[Obin Olson]

I killed the whole idea of using a 2-way mirror. I am going with a software solution...using an LCD panel that displays a true or close to true HD signal mounted ontop of the camera for DP to use....this made it so much easer to build plus the lenses screw directly onto the camera this way with NO adaptors...I think it will work out very well once I get someone to write the software for it

It would be easy enough to do a mirror later if this sucks for shooting but I think it's going to work just fine

OR i could get a headset with LCD display for outdoor use...that could be very cool

Jason what do you mean "custom front end"?

[Mike Metken]

Hey Obin,

An idea: It may be a lot easier to focus with the viewfinder, and check composition, especially in sunlight. I would leave the shutter in and would provide some lever to open when shooting and close it to use it.

Mike

[Obin Olson]

too late, this camera has been torn apart. I am stuck as it is but I think it will work fine

found the perfect mainboard for us:

http://www.americanpredator.com/prod..._microatx.html

i am checking on price

[Rob Lohman]

Obin: Rob and I (heh) are talking to Steve to see what we can
do. Personally I just don't have the finances to buy the stuff from
them. So I need to loan it somehow or get donation in some form
to be able to work on this.

I do also have some concerns in regards to how it all should come
together, but that can easily be resolved.

In regards to that mainboard I would very much like to keep it
all portable and handheld so to speak. Battery operation is
important for myself. I was more thinking along the lines of a
Pentium-M processor for example.

Anyways, we first need to get it all running (software and
connection wise) before deciding on hardware I think.

[Mike Metken]

Rob,

I don't know if you noticed but there were posts on a 7" monitor and the same company had some nice mini computers for car use. 12 V operation, no fan, extremely small.

I think that it may be too much effort to keep it hand held, without wires. By the time we are finished and come up with a reliable solution, or soon afterwards, there may be off the shelf solutions that are better, more reliable and less expensive.

I think that what is important is to focus on the development of a camera that will be excellent and inexpensive.

You need NLE. If you can record on the same computer, you'll save $ on a portable recorder. The NLE computer will have a powerful processor and options that you can take advantage of.

On film production you can trust the viewfinder. It shows you everything. The film with its high lattitude records everything.

On a digital cinama production you work differently. As a rule you need and normally use a large monitor. Before actually shooting the scene you normally go therough the scene on the lerge monitor. Then you can tape while watching the small LCD screen. And you probably have someone watching the monitor at the same tiime, or the other way around.

Your HD system has 1000 line resolution. You need same resolution monitor to check out each scene. Also you check it for blacks, clipping levels, etc.

For ENG work you need a cordless system. But these industrial type cameras will be used for a different purpose. They don't have the easy setup features of ENG cameras.

I'd say, keep it simple. Help the manufacturers develop their cameras. See what is available out there and use it with these cameras, even if it is not a conventional way.

Let's concentrate on making movies and not making cameras. We are better at the movies, the manufacturers at the cameras.

Mike

[Mike Metken]

We should look at the whole picture and make some budgets. How much money are you willing to spend? How much time are you willing to put into this? What will be the benefits? What are the options?

You need to see what is available out there and use it. You have NLEs where you can hook up your camera into. But there are no inexpensive cameras that are good and easy to use.

The industrial cameras hold a great promise. If for nothing else, then for the C-mount and availability of good inexpensive lenses.

The manufacturer nees to make a camera that will have a wide customer base. He will find it in giving the pro customer what he's used to and what is easy to use. You guys understand computers and want such a nonstandard camera. I represent more the mainstream that does not like computers. I want a camera that will plug in and play and I will see on the LCD and the monitor what I am shooting, exactly.

You need to make a budget how much more would it cost to have a camera with built in storage. Is it worth the extra money and the wait? There will probably in couple months be $4k 1080p cameras based on the best CMOS. If you can figure out how to record from it to the NLE, you have a solution.

Nothing is permanent in this field. Your camera will soon be obsolete anyway. Good HD will sooner or later cost the same as todays DV cameras.

I'm not a computer expert. I think that the Aspect HD/Premiere $1K NLE package is something to look into. It uses a very transparrent high quality software based 6:1 real time compression and works with 1440x1080p, 4:2:2, 8 bit material. If we can convert the camera output to that, we have CineAlta quality solution. I can live with that. And it is simple and available now. 6 to 12 months from now, when you develop and perfect your system, the Aspect HD based solution may be avilable as a laptop solution, or there may be many other options. But as I said, I am not a computer expert and maybe you know something that I don't understand. Just trying to put in mu 2 cents.

[Rob Lohman]

For the money everyone is going to spend on such a system you
can easily afford a small sized PC with memory / processor to
get all in one system. I personally wan't to be able to mount such
a system on a steadicam for example and not need a full blown
PC attached to it. But hey, if the software and interfaces all get
there it basically does not matter if you use your full blown PC or
built a small one.

I highly doubt by the time we would've built a handheld system
(Obin has already put the camera part in an old 16mm housing
which has room for a small PC) anything affordable will be along.
The problem is not HD or high resolution. You can get an HDV
camera now. Get that and shoot.

The problem is (color) resolution and compression levels. I don't
want 5 GOP MPEG2 as storage running at 4:1:1 and high
compression levels. I do not see any pro-sumer camera coming
out in the next year or so with any of these problems removed,
let me explain why:

1) a lot of companies agreed on HDV which is still tape (DV)
based with an MPEG2 compression scheme. In other words
those companies (see below) have agreed on such a standard
and you can bet they will be using it in newer camera's!

2) a lot of companies do not want to get angry high-end users
and want to be able to sell high-end camera's for $$$. Therefor
there will be no pro-sumer camera that can compete with their
high-end models

3) development time. To get a good reliable piece of equipment to
the market that you can buy in shops usually takes years
(they need to take a lot more into account then we need to do)

4) support systems. There just isn't support out much in the NLE
market for high-end footage. Look at how hard it is today to
edit HDV and how small amount of products our out that can
record in it (1) and edit it (2 - 3). I don't think they want to scare
consumers away or make own NLE software

5) it is a well known fact that companies usually do not put out all
the gems at once. They usually make a good product that does
not feature the latest and greatest so they can sell another
camera in a couple of years again

All this together (and probably you can come up with more reasons)
I highly doubt we will see any 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 uncompressed or
less compressed camera at 10 or 12 bit for the con/pro-sumer.

Canon Inc., Sharp Corporation, Sony Corporation, and Victor
Company of Japan, Limited (JVC) started the whole HDV movement.
The only one that seems missing is Panasonic. So it will be
interesting to see what they are going to do. Other companies
that will support HDV:

Adobe Systems Incorporated[*]
Ahead Software AG
Apple[*]
Avid Technology, Inc[*]
Canopus Co., Ltd.[*]
CineForm, Inc.
CyberLink Corp.
FOCUS Enhancements, Inc.
Hamamatsu Photonics K.K.
KDDI R&D Laboratories
KEISOKU GIKEN Co.,Ltd.
MAGIX AG
MainConcept AG
Miranda Technologies Inc.
NewSoft Technology Corp
PC DTV Technologies, LLC
Pinnacle Systems, Inc.[*]
Pixela Corp
Sigma Designs, Inc.
Sobey Digital Technology Co., Ltd.
Sony Pictures Digital Networks[*]
Ulead Systems, Inc.[*]

Companies marked with a[*] make NLE's (others in that list
might as well, but these are the ones I know). This tells a lot
from my point of view. There is even a direct-to-disk company
in there (Focus Ehancements) together with a codec builder
(MainConcept) and chip manufacturer (Sigma Designs).

[Mike Metken]

I just wanted to put in my point of view, which is of somebody who wants simple plug and play solutions, even if they are physically larger.

Boxx sells HDV NLEs with Aspect HD that you can use differently. Skip the HDV and you have 4:2:2 system, 1440x1080p, 8 bit, 6:1 highly transparent compression. Or use Aspect HD on a small computer.

Here is info on nice small factor computers:

http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1086586368.html

Mike

[Laurence Maher]

I hear ya mike,

I'm all for plug and play. I do feature filmwork. I'm no programmer. I need something relatively user friendly, even if it is cumbersome, like you. Luckily, in a few months (according to manufacturers) there will be some 1920x1080 24p box-style industrial cameras that can be used with camera link. Some, SDI. The drawback is the storage, but is probably workable with a mini pc and low cost raid. What I'm trying to figure out is, just how do i get my footage into Mac and FCP for editing, as I'm sick of PC non-stable systems.