Alain, feel free to reply to me off list, as its off-topic, but I'd be interested in talking with you about what you used (soft-synths, 'hard' synths, etc.) I do a bunch of this too, and liked your sound.

-Jonathon (jonathon@aqua-web.com)

Alain, could you give some specific information on the condenser you used, (specs and placement). If it worked for you, then I may duplicate what you used.

Brett
 

It,s 29mm X 21mm, the condenser are from a Petri Aux Telephoto Lens 1:1.94.5cm


it is not a achromat. And the curve are facing the gg.

Alain

Alain, would you be kind enough to give us the breakdown of your setup, order, lenses, macro, etc? Your latest vid is extrordinary, nice work!

SLR lens -> GG -> Condenser -> -> Macro -> DV

Alain

homemade filter tool
 

If anyone is still struggling to get the glass element out of their filter mount, don't shell out $60+ for the "Special tool". You can make it out of a scrap piece of wood and 2 screw bits for a cordless drill. It took me less than 5 minutes to make.

1. Start with a 3.5" - 5" x 1" x 1.5" piece of wood. I just cut a scrap piece of 1 x 2 pine to 5"

2. Measure the exact distance between the outsides of the two opposite notches on the filter mount. (this should be where each notch meets the outside lip of the mount)

3. Mark your wood with your notch placement.

4. Using a 15/64" drill bit (this is smaller than the diameter of the screw bits), drill two holes approx. .25"-.5" deep into the wood. PLace these holes so the outside of the hole is aligned with the outside of your notch markings on the wood.

5. Take your 2 regular(flat blade) screw bits and softly pound them into the wood. Be sure they are parrallel to each other and the long axis of the wood.

If you do it right, the outside edges of your screw bits should each set into the notches with the excess length of the blades extending to the inside, harmlessly above your filter.
As Alain suggested earlier, use a table vise to hold your filter steady while you apply force down and turn counter clockwise. Be carefull not to clamp down too hard with the vice as this might bind the tiny threads of the filter mount. Also, be sure to test the screw bit blade tips to see if they fit inside the notches before pounding them into the wood. If you goof, you'll be able to recover your screw bits but you'll have to cut a new piece of wood. I hope this helps someone. Joe

Re: homemade filter tool
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Holt : If anyone is still struggling to get the glass element out of their filter mount...

Joe -->>>

I've found an even better answer provided you haven't bought the filter yet -- purchase a Canon UV Haze filter -- they've got a wire that is pressure fitted serving as their retainer ring. With a jeweler's screwdriver it's very easy to pop out:

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/images/canonfilter.jpg

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/imag...ilter-rear.jpg

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/images/retainer.jpg

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/images/tool.jpg

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/images/glass.jpg

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/images/frost-1.jpg

http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/images/frost-2.jpg

I've started to round out my tutorial, btw -- http://ideaspora.net/aldu35

- jim

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2989241758&category=30066

this looked like it could be somehow useful.

seen them cheaper than the going rate (around $20)... not that pvc would be cheaper still... thinking ground glass holder flipped around>?

Tutorial looks good, Jim -
 

By the way, Jim - that tutorial is looking nice :) Thanks for the work on it. Nice to have it all summed up so concisely.

i totally concur, the tutorial looks great so far man!

Wow, Jim, GREAT work. thanks!

That GL1 mount, I guess it's not the same as an XL1, right?

I'm still trying to get my brain around all the technical details......

Jim's Website and PremiereVisions35 tube housing
 

Jim-
Hey great job! Thanks for doing that for everyone. Your housing is a very similar design to mine except Im using flat black aluminum tubing with finer threads. It allows for not only for finer adjustments in focus but is designed to screw right on the existing threads of both the camera and any filter rings (no glue needed). The finer your threads the less likely you will have any play in your adapter after you find focus. But I really like the type of PVC your using. PVC would be incredibly easy to find and cheap to buy so good job!

I didnt notice any type of condenser lens on your website. Are you not planning to use one? Also in the text on your website you say:

"Continue grinding, both sides if you have to, until you've got a uniformly frosted surface"

I hope your not talking about the round filter glass because if you grind both sides of that your going to have soft/diffused images. The reason being is that light from the 35mm lens will hit the first surface of the ground glass and spead out thenhit the second surface of ground glass on the other side of the filter. Bottom line...it wont look sharp. If Im miss understanding you then other might be as well. Try rewording that line so its not too confusing. Thanks again for putting that together for everyone.

-B

1000 grit
 

Hey guys!

Still no condenser for me. I have been trying to get one from an old SLR to avoid purchasing one.

However, I took my setup and put a regular lens (don't know what to call it - it's just one of the regular lenses out of some old camera.) behind the ground glass, inbetween the adapter and my GL2. Just doing this made a big difference (Don't have a bright hotspot, but more even light distribution), so I am really wanting a condenser now.

Let me try to illustrate this with ASCII art.

Ground Glass + Condenser Lens:
|| |)

Ground Glass + Other Lens(my setup):
|| ))

So, if that makes any sense, you can see that I am using the lens with the concave side against the ground glass. There is no space between the lens and the glass, by the way.
Now, I don't know optics formulas and such, but I'm just trying different things with what I have, to see what gives the best image.

After reading all this about 1000 grit Aluminum Oxide, I called the Rock Shed and ordered some. I'm assuming it would be alright to grind over my current ground glass (done with 600 grit). Is there any reason I should start with a new UV filter and do straight 1000 grit?

Thanks!

,Frank

Source for Fine-threaded aluminum tubing?
 

Brett - I've been trying to find fine-threaded metric-measured aluminum tubing just like you describe... with no luck. Any tips on your source? I'm working with PVC at the moment. I have the focusable 35mm to GG link, but the coarseness of the threads leaves a bit to be desired. I've heard that using some paint on one (probably the male) set of threads adds some 'stickiness' which may help tighten things up.

However, I'd ideally like to build it with matte-black, aluminum, fine-threaded tubing, if I could only find some (hint) :)

Frank, I have a hunch that along with "condenser lenses" you can also look for "PCX (Plano Convex) lenses", which are flat on one side and curve out on the other... The Edmunds site describes them as follows:

"Plano-Convex (PCX) Lenses have a positive focal length that makes them ideal for collecting and focusing light for many imaging applications."

http://www.edmundoptics.com/IOD/Disp...productid=1747

I'm still waiting for my batch of cheap experimental lenses (which includes some of these) to arrive, so I can gauge the effects of various focal lengths and diameters.

From what I've heard, you can go finer and finer with your grit over the coarser stuff. You should be good using your existing glass with finer grit. (That's how polishing telescope mirrors apparently works). Be sure not to have any stray particles of the 'rough stuff' in your work area.

Jonathon: Thanks! I haven't heard of the name 'plano convex', but it makes sense. Seems like the technical name for a condenser lens, but I guess there is some difference.

I'd like to see what you come up with when you get those other lenses in.

Thanks!

,Frank

Condensers and Plano-Convex lenses
 

You'll need to have tubes like that custom fabricated. I searched everywhere as well.

Thanks for the info about the Plano-Convex lenses. Your right. Plano-convex and Condenser lenses are one and the same. Condensers are the name they choose to use for SLR viewfinder optics. Its important to note that the condenser in a SLR viewfinder has a particular focal length which would need to be measured and matched when ordering a Plano-Convex. So everyones question, including mine is what is the focal length of a SLR condenser? Anyone out there have one to check?

-B

I do - from my dismantled SLR. I'll try and measure the FL on the sucker when I get home from work (cough, cough... you can tell what I spend my time doing while i'm 'working')...

Jonathon: Ha ha ha!

Besides the condenser, can someone out there that's building one of these for a GL2 tell me what achromatic diopter they're using? I'm managing to get a decent picture without one, but I haven't tested it with Brett's chart yet, so I may find that I require one.

Thanks!

Jonathon: I'm also using PVC tubing. Painting both matching surfaces does reduce the amount of play. I also drilled a hole in the end of the female adapter, and tapped it so that it takes an 8/32 nylon screw. After adjusting backfocus for the SLR lens, I just tightened the screw.

Brett: I was looking at condensers used in 35mm projectors. Their condenser consists of two plano-convex lenses that are arranged like this:

[) (]

I wonder if this would make the lighting more uniform than a single lens, and also help with aberrations. Does anyone have a 35mm projector to try this out? Mind you, a 'true' field lens is normally a single (as opposed to spaced, like in a condenser)achromat lens. As for the focal length of a condenser lens: since you're putting it right against the GG, how does 50mm sound? OK, how about 70mm? Should make no difference. Yeah, I know, easy for me to say, I don't even have a condenser to try it out with...

Ah - that's a good idea, Roman... I'll try that tonight (after I measure my condenser's FL)...

Condensers/Plano-Convex lenses
 

I really feel that the focal length of the condenser is important even though its resting right on the ground glass. Dont forget the curved side od the condenser is still forced to be few millmeters away from the ground glass though.

About the focal length info I previously post. I just remembered that its not going to exactly match the focal length of a SLR's condenser afterall because after the condenser the gap between it and the achromat macro filter is diferent for each video camera. I can say that the focal length for a SLR condenser should be in the ball park of what we need to end up using.

I can say one good thing though. When you have a diffused source behind the condenser (ie GG) you dont have to be exactly perfect on the focal length for the condenser. The closer the better, sure, but get it close and it shoud be fine.

-B

Forgive me if I'm being redundant... the months of ongoing 35mm adapter posts are getting hard to keep track of. Anyway, knowing the focal length of the condenser lens will help a lot, but the focal length of the fresnel should also be taken into account. On my SLR, the fresnel is very hard to see, but is located on the back side of the "ground glass" piece, with a mini condenser lens in the very center. That's why the center is so much clearer to focus than the surrounding area. I've been searching for weeks trying to find any reference to their focal lengths, but have always come up empty handed. I'm certainly looking forward to Jonathon's calculations.

Surprising Condenser FL Results
 

Well, I measured it - and the focal length: 155mm (!)

More information:

My SLR (Canon AE-1) had the following in its viewfinder mechanism (forgive the ASCII Art):

Side View:
(Not to scale...)

The mirror reflects the image up through the condenser onto the ground glass/fresnel. That image continues up into the pentaprism where it gets inverted and comes out through the ocular eyepiece magnifier.

When you snap the picture, the mirror flips up out of the way, so the 35mm goes straight to the film on the back wall.

The condenser is actually rectangular, exactly 36mm x 24mm (the same size as a piece of 35mm film).

It is only about 2mm thick at its thickest point, so you can image - across the 36mm width - with only a 2mm change in thickness the 'radius' of the lens would be quite large... first clue of a long focal length.

I have a piece of black construction paper (that I'm using to line/cover things I don't want to be reflective in my adapter). I set this out on the table and held the condenser above it until the image of my overhead light was clearly visible on the paper. I had a ruler measuring the height above the paper - 155mm.

I could get the sharp image at 155mm regardless of which direction the curve faced.

So.... it doesn't look to me like that 155mm has anything to do with the focal length of the camera (42.1mm in my case).

For what its worth - hope this helps.

Phew, that's a lot of info.
 

I've been reading the pages and pages, bit I've lost track of what the most recent discussion is regarding! Can someone quickly reiterate for me what the problem is with the "static design" that is currently being discussed?

on some adapters there is chromatic aberration and some blooming/hotspotting i believe.

Ari...
 

Well, I would summarize the current situation as this:

We're trying to innovate, improve. But... it works - right now.

Alain and other have already built successful models. By most measures, "Good enough." We're just looking at little things here and there (like vignetting in the corners, which has been solved in practice, by Alain with a condensor) and tube construction (tips on PVC screws from Roman, and custom fabrication from Brett are good hints for solving this)...

In short, we're running out of things to fix!

I think the majority of us are just waiting around for parts, and completing construction before we all begin the next batch of improvements, and so on, and so on. We'll probably never be done - but it's looking pretty dang good in its current state, (just ask Alain). The design as it stands works just fine. We more or less have a solution which, for somewhere between $12 and $200 (depending on what you buy) provides a similar result as that of a commercial product which *rents* for higher than our construction price and sells well into the hundreds, if not higher. Time well spent, in my book.

So lies the path of continued evolution.

Check out Jim Lafferty's tutorial (back a page or so) for a good start on the current best-built solution.

Still to be tackled, are a 'best solution' for the inverted image at the DVCam. Alain's fisheye/viewfinder combo showed promise and talk of inverting prisms here and there also interesting. Noone, to my knowledge, has inverted the image 'in the path' without need for an inverter on the viewer... might be possible, but we can't give up too much light.

I think the progress, so far, has been the result of so many people, (Those mentioned above, Tavis, John, Joe, Josh, Dino, Giroud... so many others previously), sharing information and tips so we all benefit. This forum rocks.

Sorry (sniff), just enjoying how cool this kind of exchange is. Imagine trying to do this in pre-internet days.

Peace-

PS - I can't wait to start seeing finished films made with the adapters. Its one thing to put some PVC together, its another to formulate a piece of film worth watching. Looking forward to the results.

Brett:

You highlighted this sentence in my tutorial:

"Continue grinding, both sides if you have to, until you've got a uniformly frosted surface"

And you're correct -- this is not optically ideal. As a corrective, I've now added:

"Note: Any scratches that mar the surface of your filter will show up in your camera's CCD. You may find it to your benefit to cover one side of your filter with strips of scotch tape in order to avoid scratching, while still allowing you to see through it completely. Ideally, you're going to want to frost only one side of the glass, but if you scratch both sides, grinding them until they're uniformly frosted will be your only recourse."

Incidentally, I've frosted both sides of my filter, and while it stands to the laws of optics that this isn't ideal, some eyeball checks seem to prove it OK.

Frank:

The GL1 setup I've got uses a +7 achromatic diopter from Centry Optics. It's not heap ($210), but it kills several birds (for me) with one stone:

It's zoom through, meaning I can use it with other projects,

Its diameter is perfect for pressure-fitting this adapter,

Its quality glass.

For those of you late to the show, here's my tutorial.

- jim

Jim
Your last link to the tutorial is not working.
Alain

wrong URL
 

He just typed the URL wrong, the right one is:
http://www.ideaspora.net/aldu35/
Part 3 of the tutorial doesn't seem to exist though

Sorry bout that -- was in a rush. The link's fixed, and part 3 will be up in a few days.

- jim

Nice, I'm excited to see it ;)

Jim, you need a condensor.

Hi Jim
 

In your tutorial about the grinding, normaly you should do the reverse, the square glase on the table and the filter on top, so you'r moving the filter ,use two square of glass and altern betwen both at 5 to 10 min interval. That way you are having lens chance of imperfection or uneven GG.

About the inversion I don't know if it's make a big difference , but that's the way I have learn it, maybe it's not important.I just tell you.

But is this becoming a very good tutorial.

Alain

Jim: I may have to break down and gut a quality lens form Century Optics. Not sure yet, but thanks for the info!
,Frank

for those who need to rotate the GG, i thing there is something good to get from a very thin roller bearing like the ones you can find here
KAYDON http://www.reali-slim.com/pdfs/kayd...log.pdf#page=15)

Use Empty Lens Housings as High Quality Focusing Tubes
 

Instead of PVC for our adapter's adjustable housing - why not try a still photography lens without its internal optics. There are so many cheap 35mm/medium format lenses out there (even cheaper to buy if they are already broken). Often times the older still lenses have a smoother feel to their focusing ring and if you get a lens with internal focus you wont have to deal with your whole adapter spining around as you adjust and set focus.

The only problem is its going to be hard to find a lens with both a extrance and exit aperature large enough for our 36mm X 24mm gate.

And if anyone knows of where to get lens housing minus their optics let us know.

-Brett Erskine

thats a greaat idea Brett. Would it be possible to cut the smaller end of the lens to accomodate the gate?

Im not sure. Each lens has its own internal lens design and changing it like that might create serious problems.

Another option is a ready made adjustable extension tube.

-B