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Hey Jun,
What was the thing mounted between the camera lens and the cd spindle? My problem with making one of these for the XL1s will be having to create some distance between the lens and the spindle and then zooming (which may require the addition of some sort of magnifier to help focus). The (stock) canon lens has a diameter of around 8.5cm and the cd spindle is only 12cm in diameter.. However, most of the 8.5cm is just housing, the lens itself is only using a small amount of that diameter.. The problem is mounting the motor at the centre point, when the lens' housing overlaps that centre point. I'll probably have a go at doing this in about half a month though, so there's still some time to see the next generations of the Agus-35 and see how they deal with it :-) Kieran |
mmm Seens like the mini35 real adapter have the same problems, if you see it, they use another lens to the XL1s, from the box to the camera... perhaps that's the relay lens...
Try to find a really old canon lens from a SLR camera, you should be able to fit it in the XL1s, and then get the image from the ground glass. |
J. Clayton, Yeah all I was going on was what Agus had posted about this. Definately try it out if you have the parts handy. Once I get a better fresnel I'll try to make a more permanent and durable version.
Agus, There was some vibration at first, but what I did was lay the cd on a flat surface and filled the center with hot glue and found the exact center (or close), poked a hole, pushed the motor in and hot glued in place... But yeah, it's tough to get little to zero vibration. Kieran, between the 35mm lens and the spindle? What I used to mount the lenses was the lens cap for the opposite end of the lens that i just cut the top out of, that way I could just screw in Canon EF lenses. On the DV camera side it was a standard UV filter and a macro lens (cause I didn't have the right fresnel) stacked. This is history in the making, once these get perfected, P+S technik has some serious competition that will surely drive their prices down. Thanks again Agus! (I'm going to say it until I sound like an infomercial! haha) |
Not to put a damper on the whole commercialism of this awesome idea, but I would imagine that P+S has some sort of protection (patent or otherwise) on the ideas that are being used here, seeing as how Agus said he read the Mini35 manual and just replicated that using common household items (how mad scientist-sounding).
While I agree this could easily drive their prices down (that is... if the footage is good enough and the information is spread wide enough, of course. If no one knows, P+S won't care), I don't think the "homemade" version could be sold commercially. That said, I've been trying to get my roommate to lend me his 80mm-200mm lens so I can try some of this stuff out. <g> Keep up the good work. |
I just shoot a Go karts racing event, the footage is really awesome, i will make a video, showing a demo footage.
about the comercial stuff, well, actually, i dont really think that P+S have invented something new... the tech is the same from SLR cameras, they only make the ground glass to spin, which is not a big discovering. WHat i have to admit is that their product is top noch, it is really pro, you can adapt all kind of lens, they have adjustable GG (ground glass) speed, and you can use the camera batery power to operate it. They will never loose their clients because of this homemade device, i think it is all the way around... this device will show everybody why they should use it !!! because it is a homemade version, you will never the the perfect picture as the mini35, but you will get the same DOF. As for a comercial Adapter, yes, i am currently working on building one, what i am pretending to sell, but keep in mind, that this is for poor people, (like me, who make it from the first thing i saw), and it will never be as good as the P+S mini35... i really doubt it... still... For all we indie filmaker, that we only own a miniDV camera, now we can have awesome shoots, for really no money, and in a way train ourself to handle profesional DOF, so if the oportunity comes, we will be able to handle a 35mm camera with no trouble. Have fun, and the plans will be ready for next week, until then... i will be editing this footage and upload it as soon as i get it. Thanks everybody for their support, also i want to thank to all the ones that were before me, explaining the theory of the adapter. and how it should be built. |
I am still not sure why you need the frosted glass if you are going from the 35mm lens straight to the DV Camera. I understand why it is necessary if you are going through the veiw finder, bouncing off of mirrors etc. It is further from the first mirror to your eye than it would be from the point of the first mirror to the film. So the frosted glass is there the same distance as the film and you are looking at it when you look through the veiw finder. Here is a diagram: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/camera7.htm
It seems like the light or image will be at the film plane with or without the frosted glass. It seems like the trick is to get the DV camera focused on that plane. Would it be possible to say insert a slide with a focusing pattern and a grid showing the area that should be covered, focus and then remove the slide and block off all light. If this worked it would cut down on the loss of light because of the frosted glass. Agus, can you focus on the frosted glass and then remove it? If so, what do you get? The image will still be upside down. Also remember focusing on the move or follow focus will still be a problem with still camera lens because of breathing. See Charles Papert's explanation here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7713&perpage=15&pagenumber=3 Still I'm sure we can all live with these problems for this kind of DOF. Add some color correction and 24p or 30p good enough for many projects. Paul |
Wouldn't frosted glass compared to clean glass affect the image quality?
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IMO:
The frosted glass is used like a projection screen, and the camcorder "film" the image produced by the 35 mm lens on this "screen". A clean glass would not preserve the focal lenght of the 35 mm lens. |
Ground glass v. aerial image
I'm not sure of the proper optical terms here, so I hope I amd able to convey this idea...
The ground glass essentially is acting as a rear-projection element and is re-establishing your depth of focus by reimaging what you are seeing through the 35mm lens. If you used a condenser lens, you would simply be adding the 35mm lens to your DV lens and would not be gaining the same effect. Again, I don't know the specifics, but you wouldn't be seeing the 35mm image. By recapturing the depth of focus onto a flat screen, you are able to take advantage of the optical properties of that 35mm lens. Also, the grainier the ground glass, the more contrast you will see. As you remove the grain, the contrast is reduced. Hence the spinning ground glass. |
Agus35 vs Mini35
Unbelievable Agus, i'm very impressed, currently i've done some preliminary testing of your prototype which i hope to flesh out over the next many weeks. True the Mini35 is nothing new, just a different take on the "Camera Obscura" (http://brightbytes.com/cosite/what.html). But you are ingenious, daring and ABOVE all inspiring...! That's why I want to dub your creation the Agus35. Some quick questions... Your using the clear CD from the 25-CD pack, correct? (or is there another component I'm missing which you refer to as the "ground glass"?)or did you aquire an actual circular cut glass which you have "sanded" on one side? Else, I'm also thinking of trying to aquire an actual circular glass and using some etching acid from an arts store to frost one side for a finer "sanded" finish. Would you think that makes a difference in quality? Technically it seems it might. Also have you found an ideal place to put the rotating motor? And another, once you have adjusted the image to appear in the ground glass, the sweet spot, have you tried other lenses to check on their results? Like a zoom??? |
Well, yeah, if you use a cutted groud glass, made of glass and not plastic, you will have more quality, and you will loose less light steps.
Also, the ideal place for me for the motor is in the center of the spindle, it even have te same diameter to fit those very popular chinese motor toys. I love all that about calling this adaptor the Agus35 ... heheheh |
Posted by Brandt<<The ground glass essentially is acting as a rear-projection element and is re-establishing your depth of focus by reimaging what you are seeing through the 35mm lens.>>
I understand all that. I just can't picture why the light isn't at that same place, plane or distance if you focus on it. I guess the light must actually strike something to be seen. I see how there are advantages to using mirrors, prism, etc. so as to be looking at the other side of the frosted glass and not having to look through it. That has to really cut down the light as has been discussed. Plus looking at other side it's possible to flip the image. Good bit more involved to make though. |
Ok, this is quite simple, it seens that you havent even tried up the adapter, and also you seen not to understand how it works.
The adapter is way to simple to use, to build and the picture quality is amazing clear and pefect DOF... now, if you want to build another adapter using no ground glass and mirros... well... i think that is another topic. The challenge was to build an adapter which would cost less than 10 dollars, and you could get equal image to the mini 35... i have succeded, the image is clear, i have DOF control, no vigneting... no noise... the mini35 offers many more really advanced features, but i have adchieved the simpliest ones and the most important. You need the ground glass.. i dont know why you are putting that you can do it, when you havent even tried. When i look at the mini 35, ithought it was just as simple to put the SLR lens in front of the DV camera, NO... it doest work that way... So, pick up an SLR camera lens, your dv camera, and tried like you said, to use mirros, and no ground glass, the point is that this topic is about this adapter, which was built only using a 25 cd spindle, and cheap toy with an electric engine... no means to offend, just to continue moving forward with this project. |
another test...
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/kartfilm.mov about the GG, i wonder about its weight... cause if it is too heavy it will force a lot the little engine. |
Quote:
That's why you can get a shallow DOF on your DV camera using this even if you're zoomed in, with a small aperture, and your CCD is only 1/3"... the usual rules don't apply since you're taking a picture of a picture, not of actual things. By the way, Agus... what sort of processing are you doing on that footage? It looks very dark, what are the settings you're using? And maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing a little vignetting on the edges... did you not zoom in like you said you were before? All in all though, that looks really good. |
I was also just thinking that in a later version of "Angus35" it would be possible with maybe the use of mirrors to vertically flip the image before it got recorded onto the camera to take away from the hassle.
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Jon Yurek,
Thank you. That answers my question. I guess the angle of the light changes when it hits the frosted glass. Agus, I do understand how it works. I have been looking into this for almost 2 years. I have not tried it yet because I lost everything to a fire some months ago before I could start. I never said that you could get away without the frosted glass only asking if you had tried and what you got. Jon's answer explains why that wouldn't work. You have the DOF and no grain but it also looks dark especially around the edges. Sorry if I got off topic but thought this thread might lead someone on another quest like earlier threads led you to this one. Noah Posnick, Stay tuned I am sure you will see other versions. |
why are you still calling me angus ? it is Agus.. from Agustin , .. hehehe
Yeah. my comercial version will use a pentaprism to correct the image. but that will take long until it will be avaible, now you can try up the free version :) About the vigenting Jon, in some scenes i use it as visual effect, :-) i dont see it very dark, could it be that maybe your screen brightness is too low ? (i have to admit, that while i was shooting, the adaptor move a little to the right, check the other side there is no vigneting, after a stupid kid came running and made my camera fall !!!!, that also scracted and bump my 50mm lens... damn, but i can ensure you that there is no vigneting when it is centered, i just didnt noticed.) I tried to copy a mini35 demo video, which use motocross racers, this is not motocross actually, but you will get the idea, i use Magic bullet, and look suite, and RE smoothkit (to take out the staicases from the interlacing... my cheap TRV18 needs some help always)... Chek the part where the guy fall, you will see that the other bikes coming in front are really blurred, and also the behind the crash the same happens, your attetion will be only with him, that is the real DOF meaning. |
Hey Agus,
I have a few questions (trying to build my own now! And I have a Sony TRV17! :-) 1. How exactly did you affix the end of the motor to the spinning CD? It seems difficult to center/stick to the CD... what did you use to do this? 2. What toy did you get the motor out of? Was it a dreamcast controller, coz if so, I have one of those lying around myself :-) thanks!! I will take pictures of my Agus35 as well once I get it going... paulb |
hehehe you got the my little sister camera of my own.. the TRV18 and 17 are almost the same...
ok.. dont laugh, but i took a lego toy, and remove one pice that was the wheel, put it into another bigger lego piece (they are great, cause they are 100% centered) , and then make the cd to fit to that piece... the toy was a Xmas ball that start throwing some fake snow... from there i took the switch and the batery holder as well. let me post some pictures of it, so you can understand it more. |
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Here is a cool video !!!
Quicktime http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto35mmfilmtest2v4.mov Windows Media http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/moto35mmfilmtest2v4.wmv |
Diffusion Glass
This could be a good source for the projection glass.
http://www.edmundoptics.com/IOD/Browse.cfm?catid=453 These guys make all sorts of good optic supplies. |
Hi Agus!
Well, I finished building the first version of my Agus35 tonight... Unfortunately for some reason my computer won't see the camera as a DV deck so I can't import footage at the moment, but I will as soon as I get it working... In the meantime: I can't seem to get rid of vignetting. I am using a TRV17, and at the closest I can place the lens to the ground glass, I still get a bright spot in the middle of the image (much like your earlier footage Agus.) If I zoom in more than about half way, it goes wildly out of focus. I think I may need to use a magnifying glass as you did in your device but Im not sure where to find that... Also, where exactly it is mounted in the device? My problem is that I basically can't zoom in enough to cover the entire screen with the bright spot. thanks for any help! Almost there! paulb p.s. I used the spindle from a broken CD player I had lying around as the motor/ground-glass axle. It works beautifully because it mounts the CD perfectly centered on the attached little plastic mount disc with ZERO vibration! A cd player with this type of motor/mount could be found at toysrus/bestbuy/whatever for less than 20 dollars. |
Paul,
Were you able to use the CD player motor too? That is a brilliant idea...remove a cheap CD player's inards, replace them to a housing, and all you have to do is get the distance right on how far the "glass" is from the lens and hit "play"!!! I wonder if you can remove the CD laser(?) and still be able to hit play and it would work, then hit stop when done???? What'd you think? Clay P.S. Then you could also run it on two AA batteries!!! |
I skipped using any of the rest of the CD player's electronics for now. My main goal in canabalizing the player was to get at the little plastic piece that the CD sits on, because this is perfectly centered on the motor and gives zero vibration (it's built to do that!)
paulb |
Okay, I now have a quote for a manufactured piece of ground glass:
100mm diameter with a 10mm hole in the centre is £70 ($121 at the current exchange rate) for a one off. But bear in mind that industrial optics manufacturers tend to do bulk orders rather than one off commissions. Also I'm not sure what the thickness is, but if it's similar to edmund optics then it should only be 1mm, so it shouldn't add too much weight on the motor.. I think I'll stick with the plastic cd until one of you sees how much better the adapter performs with "proper" ground glass. After all the XL1s might cope fine with the loss of stops.. Anyway I'm getting a little ahead of myself, as my first problem's going to be getting the adapter on to the XL1s in the first place :o) Kieran |
One other thing... I've been looking into ground glass, and it doesn't look like it's too difficult to make your own. You basically take two sheets of glass, and rub them together for 15 minutes with a very fine grit and some water inbetween (apparently Bearing grit will do the trick, from an auto store). From there, you can cut the pane of glass into a circle with a circular glass cutter. Most of that stuff can be found in a stained glass art supply store, such as Hobby Lobby.
The only trick will be the fact that I can't cut a CD-sized hole small enough in the middle, coz the circular glass cutter won't go that small. Instead, what I think im going to do is cut a larger hole, and then affix the CD to the surface of the glass with glue, therefore giving me a CD sized hole :-) paulb |
yeah.. that is a excellente solution, but remember to take a close look to the weight, you cant force the little motor too much to get high spining speeds
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I've been following this thread for a couple of days now-and I'm getting excited! I operate in EXTREME low budget filming and this cheap of a 35 mm solution (as far as DOF goes) looks promising. However, I am still quite naive in this field-and have a couple of questions...
-There has not been any detailed tutorial posted yet on the construction of this homemade adapter, correct? When I get some time I might get building from the info from the previous posts-but I just wanted to make sure I hadn't skipped the completed tutorial. -I have been saving for a Canon XL1s, but am a little fuzzy on the easiest way to adapt a 35mm lens to it. The interchangeable lens feature of the XL1s attracted me-is there not a way to take a Canon 35 mm lens and stick it onto the XL1s? Or is this still relatively expensive or just not a part of the interchangeable lens design. Has anyone successfully adapted Agus's setup to the XL1s? - For my final question I demonstrate my complete ignorance. I know little about different camera lenses-especially in price. About how much is a decent 35mm lens that could be used on this setup? Other than this (and the camera) the rest of the material could be purchased for under $10-&15, correct? A big thank-you to all who have spent their time in posting examples, asking questions, and designing the adapter in the first place! You're inspiring. |
The XL1 is going to be the most difficult camera to adapt to the Agus35. You need a lens to focus the image from the ground glass onto the CCD's. In the mini35, for the DVX100 and the PD150, they use the camera's built-in lens (as Agus is using for his adapter). For the XL1 mini35, they supply a relay lens for that purpose. If you have an XL1 and don't have a relay lens, you won't be able to use the Agus35 (unless you want to stick it on the front of your 16x lens).
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Today we shoot a Maseratti racing car, i got some awesome shoots that i will post later...
Jacob, you can adapt 35mm lens to the xls, but you wont get DOF, but you can find some canon SLR lens (could be old) that are used to get pictures to really close distance, in that way you can shoot the ground glass with no problem... so in other words you need to find a relay lens that replace your 16x one to a macro type one (dunno if macro is used to take close pictures). I have tons of work i am sorry for no posting the plans yet, but i really barely have time to sleep. |
I have a pd150 camera
I need to magnify the image as I can't focus on it and its too small when its in focus... I can't afford to break any of my wide angle lens as agus did. Can I by a macro or "telephoto" lens that will do the same thing? or amy i thinking wrongly? |
Agus35 for the XL1S
I actually believe the XL1S is perfectly suited for the Agus35. There may be some other costs involved but very nominal comparison to purchasing/leasing the Mini35. So far these are my plans, the most important part is the support bracket, which I have just ordered this, a baseplate with rails $295(http://www.jbkcine.com/i-1.JPG) from here http://www.jbkcine.com, I also have an EF adapter, but you can probably pick one up here $395, http://www.virtualcybervision.com/xl1/EOSMAIN.htm (btw, all EF adapaters are real pieces of junk, they don't really work unless you have, like, a 500mm lens) but since they are machined one offs, you might be able to pick one up on ebay a bit cheaper. Now once you have the adapter, you can put on a standard prime lens, hopefully, I'll know when my brackett and rods come in, I should just about be able to stand a 25CD container right on top + batteries, and the lens on the other side. Since the camera already large I think good support base is important. As far as the glass, I've working with a stain glass person to help me cut different types of glass I want to test out. Very cheap actually, $5 per glass cut in the shape of a CD. I'll either dremel one side to make a gg (ground glass) or get them to use etching acid (which i think could be best) and also, just for experiementing I ordered 2 - 5 x7 sheets of optic quality gg like $30 bucks total... so that's where i am at so far with my Agus35, I'll keep everyone posted, stay tuned....
ps: also why the xl1 is great is because of it's AMAZING low light capabilities, once you have an ideal optical adjustment the results should be stunning... |
My Agus 50mm Mod
Hey everyone, after tracking this thread with bated breath and waiting for our good buddy Agus to release a "how-to," I couldn't take it anymore and finally went out yesterday and made my own "Agus 50mm mod." Based on the "Ghetto 35mm" (which is a sweet name, Jun) and Agus' pics I went around town and collected:
- 30 cd-r pack (for the spindle and clear cd) - 3V electric motor + AAA housing (gotta love Radioshack) - A rear lens cap for my Dad's old Olympus 50mm lens - Some black paint from Wal-Mart for a buck - Already had sand paper, a glue gun, and the lens Hard to believe that's all you need, but sho'nuff it is. First I took the rear lens cap and sawed off the back (a laborious job indeed for a young squire with only a hacksaw) but I managed. The reason I used this to connect the 50mm lens to the body was so that you could easily interchange lenses and avoid gluing the whole lens to the body (pops wasn't too keen on that one, see the pic below). Then with a bit of elbow grease I cut the 50mm hole in the top cover of the cd-r spindle, then the 58mm hole in the back (for my GL1's lens). It was then that I realized that our 58mm cams (VX2K, GL1, GL2, PD-150) require a hole that covers part of the middle of the back - exactly where the motor needed to sit. So, I opted to install the motor from the front. (more cutting in the front part of the cd-r spindle) I next took some very fine sandpaper and scratched away at the plastic cd. I broke an old, soft, plastic cd case and mounted just the center part to the shaft of the motor, then popped the cd on. (You can barely see it in the pic labeled "guts". This way it's pretty much centered with little vibration that Agus experienced. After that - I got out the hot glue gun and went to town. I adhered the now back-less back lens cap around my 50mm hole, and stuck the motor in and glued it securely directly beneath my lens mount. Hot glue is about the best thing for this because it's strong, but can easily be broken away if you mess up. I found it helpful. Of course, before I glued the motor in place I put the lens on the back lens cap mount I made and checked which focal length resulted in a sharp image on the scratched cd. Then I glued the motor with the cd on. Next I simply painted the whole thing and allowed it to dry overnight. It works like a charm on my naked eye, unfortunately, my GL1 is in the shop due to a faulty LCD (crocodile tears) Therefore I don't have any video to share. I took the pics below so you can see the finished product. The pics of it in action are pretty sheissty, not too much I can do with a digi-cam, and they really don't do justice to what you see with your eye alone. I attached it to my parent's old VHS-C cam and it works pretty well (as well as it can work with such a consumer cam) but it's really quite amazing how the image is projected onto the spinning plastic. Anyways, hope I didn't babble too much, and I wanna send thanks out to Agus, Jun, and everyone else on the thread for contributing ideas! I hope this post can help someone out! http://www.par-t-com.net/50mm_wide.JPG http://www.par-t-com.net/50mm_lens.JPG http://www.par-t-com.net/50mm_guts.JPG http://www.par-t-com.net/50mm_far.JPG http://www.par-t-com.net/50mm_close.JPG |
Good job Devin, now you are the third owner know to have a Agus35 built (i love the name... why would be ??)
Have a question, how exactly did you made that part where you attach your lens ? i looks like it has a lock in system. Again, congratulations, and i would suggest you to use a 600 sandpapers for the cd, and make little scracthes, as you will noticed then with the camera you will get a better stable image if you make the GG with it. Also, for everybody, let me recomend to shut down the steady shot, it wont work with Agus35 and again you will get a better image, also put the auto shutter to off and set it manually. |
Looks good, could you give me the model number of the motor parts, as I'll be making my trip to radio shack soon. One quick question: it doesn't seem that you have a way to make sure the connection between your 35mm adapter and the GL1 is secure. In other words, what's preventing the adapter from falling off the GL1 when your lets say in the process of a tilt?
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Agus - Thanks! The part where the lens connects to the body is merely a back lens cap for an olympus lens, the only thing I did was saw off the back so that way it became a ring. It does lock, but not enough that I'd be comfortable shaking the system around a lot. It was 3 bucks at my local camera shop. Once again, kudos for coming up with the cd spindle idea and starting this thread!
Noah - It's just a 1.5V-3V motor. At radioshack they should have a drawer of them. They have larger motors, but i figured this would do the trick and is small enough. It's powered by 2 AAA's. About connecting it to my camera - there's nothing preventing it from coming off. Since my cam is at Canon's repair factory I have no way of working on that facet of the adapter - yet. So try some things on your own, it shouldn't be too tough! |
Is there too much motor noise ? i am having serious issues about audio in my agus 35, seens like i will have to put it inside, or look for a way to make it silent.
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It's not completely silent, but then again it's not terribly loud either. There's no way you could use onboard audio with it running though. Where is your motor located? I never saw it in the pics.
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