low cost powered monitors?
 

Does anyone have recommendations for a pair of low cost <$150 (but effective) powered monitors for my video editing setup? It's a small room.
thanks
Greg

"Low cost" and "effective powered monitors" are two phrases that just don't fit together in the same sentence. You're going to be hard pressed to find monitors under $500 to $750 and even that's really pushing the lower boundary - that's closer to the entry-level price for each speaker rather than the pair if you're looking at proper monitors. The absolute rock-bottom minimum I can think of off-hand are the Behringer 2031a Truths at about $400 for the pair - not a recommendation for Behringer but they have gotten some favourable reviews for entry level monitors. If your budget won't sustain more than $150, get a good pair of closed-back professional headphones instead - Sony 7506, Sennheiser 280 or HD25 or similar. You shouldn't use them to mix on, good monitors in a decent room are a must for mixing, but they'll be fine for evaluating and cutting sound and dialog. What the heck, you need good cans for monitoring while shooting anyway, right?

Thanks Steve, looks like poor budgeting on my part, and that I may need to go higher - aside from the Behringers, any advice in the $500-$750 range?
Thanks
Greg

The best I know that are closest to your range are the Dyn-Audio BM5A at $1000 a pair. Another contender to listen to would be the Genelec 8020APM at about $750 a pair. There are a number of good monitors in the $750 a pair vicinity from Mackie, m-Audio, KRK, Event, etc but I think if you audition them you'll find the $250 <grin>.

Hi Greg,
You might want to consider the Yamaha MSP3's?
Average at US$149.95 at zzsounds (or your favourite online dealer)
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/produc...sp3/index.html

Steve,

Just out of curiousity, rather than sticking to a specific price range, which monitors would you consider to be the minimum acceptable by YOUR standards and how much do they run? I'll be buying something eventually, but rather than pick something that fits whatever I can afford at the moment, I'd rather pick something that will do the job and then budget for it, even if it takes a little longer to get it. I'm just getting started with all of this, so I can afford to wait a bit to get something that will work well for me.

Thanks,

Larry

That's hard to say because there's so many different ones on the market, good, bad, and so-so, and I've far from autioned all of them. It's a topic that does have some immediacy for me because I've been shopping for a pair myself for some time now and finances have been tight the last little while so I still haven't purchased. Price isn't the sole indicator because to my ears, for example, a pair of Yorkville Sound monitors selling for $500 Canadian sounded better than a pair of KRK's that were $300 more. The best bet is to get a set of CDs togther representing material that you both know well and have a good idea what it SHOULD sound like and audition, audition, audition, looking for the cleanest and most accurate sound. I pretty well ended up with a short list of DynAudio BM6, Genelec 8030, Genelec 1029, DynAudio BM5 and finally have decided on a pair of JBL Pro LSR4326 with the accessory room equalization kit - the pair plus room kit lists about $1400 USD, right at a little over a kilobuck from B&H and right in the middle of the range defined by the above list. They have a good balance for both music and dialog and are very clean with no really pronounced colouration or distortion to my ears. In fact, they compared very favourably with the Dynaudio BM6 and a pair of K&H monitors running 4 times their price. The JBL 4328s also sounded great but I don't have room for them. Had the money coming in last November and was just a couple of days away from placing my order when some unexpected car repairs came up that ate up all the cash I'd earmarked for monitors so it'll be another couple of months. Bwaahhhh!

My particular audition package included Doug Spotted Eagle's "Tenaya", the John Dunbar Theme from "Dances with Wolves", Soundtrack to "Moulin Rouge", Diana Krall "The Girl in the Other Room", and Kraftwerke's "Tour de France" plus some excepts from audiobook readings for dialog and some clips from the original masters of a chorale performance that fellow forum member Dan Keaton was kind enough to send me a while back, if that gives you some idea as to the type of material I used to compare the various speakers.

How much are ElectroVoice Sentry 100EL these days?

Regards,

Ty Ford

Just did a quick google, Ty, and it looks like the few listings there are price them around $995 each.

Thanks Steve,

Your comment about finding the money once you hear the speakers is right on.

The dynaudio are good and I like the mid level ADAM as well. The K+H 0110 I tried last year were also very nice, but needed a sub,
http://www.atlasproaudio.com/kh.html

Then these:http://www.mackie.com/products/hr824/index.html

I have a real problem with anyone who wants low cost (and presumably accurate) anything when "low cost" just doesn't get you there.

Do you want your audio to sound "low cost?"

Regards,

Ty Ford

I know some composers who are using Sky monitors and love them. Just another option...

Alright, you could spend thousands of dollars on speakers and you would get really great, acurate speakers and I would agree with anybody in saying that. That said, this guy wants audio monitors for a video editing set-up, not for mixing feature soundtracks or for recording a cd. Am I correct in saying this Greg?

Bottom line, I have been in a few pretty high end facilities and I have never really seen high end monitors in any video editing suite. There is a reason for this, video editors aren't audio engineers (typically anyway). So a price range between $500-$750 seams like a good price range that will get you a pair of speakers that you might find in a lot of respectable suites out there.

I think a general rule to go by, especially if you have a small room and are only doing video, is to look at the smaller speakers in your price range. A lot of good models have been mentioned here. I have been curious about the blue sky monitors myself. For the money, I like the JBL lsr6325p. They should be around $600 a pair and would be great for video work. The Genelec 8020s are about the same size, but a bit more expensive. If you don't want to spend that much, go to your local guitar center or sam ash or anyother store that sells pro audio gear (go to all of them if you please) and check out what they have, but give a lot of monitors a serious listen before you buy any. You should be able to get by with a decent pair of headphones and a good set of speakers for video work at a reasonable price.

Good luck

Even for cutting video you still need to be able hear critically exactly what's going on. Not just what's being said, but the characteristics of the sound. While the OP may not be cutting a feature or making a commercial CD, he still needs to be able to evaluate the sound quality in detail, hear subtle qualities in the background ambience, match the voice tonality between different takes in a scene, match the tonailty of different takes recorded at different times and perhaps even with different mics (medium 2-shots recorded with a shotgun on a boom intercut with closeups recorded with the mic closer to the speaker or even with a lav instead of a shotgun), hear what's happening when the cut occurs in mid sentence (Does the voice quality match on either side of the cut? Is the room tone and ambience identical on either side of the cut?), evaluate levels and hear any flaws like clipping etc. and the list goes on. We may not need $5000 each monitors tailored for music mastering or of the sort used for mixing down and mastering the THX soundtrack on a theatrical release of 'Starwars' but just clearly hearing the words in the dialog isn't anywhere near enough either.

I'm confused, are you trying to disagree with me. My only point is that a theatrical mix and music mix is different from your average video. This is exactly your point too. So to max out you investment dollars, buy a small monitor that might not go down too low in the frequency range, rather than buying a large one and you'll be able to hear the kinds of things that you are talking about. Given that, there are plenty of fine examples in the $500 to $750 range that would fill the bill for Greg. That is my only point.

Listen to the KRK v4s, genelec 8020s, Adam artists, jbl 6325s, etc. etc. etc. etc. All perfectly respectable speakers. On the low end, the Yamaha msp5s are very nice. Just go out and listen to as many pairs of speakers as you can. Just don't worry about deep bass, unless you intend for viewers to play back on a high stereo or are planing for a theatrical release.

Wasn't really disagreeing with your post, just wanted to clarify for the benfit of other readers more than anything else. All too often we hear "it's only dialog so you don't reallt need high quality speakers." I'll agree with your list of speakers that deserve an audition, wit the possible exception of the KRK's. I don't have the model numbers handy right now but I auditioned about 4 different KRK models and I have to confess I wan't very impressed by them - they all sounded very harsh to my ears, especially when A/B'd with the likes of Mackie's 624 and 824 or the Genelec.

Well kinda, Greg. I'm setting up to make low budget indie movies, but I think there's a long distance between what folks suggest are good ones here and what I can currently afford. I'm learning this stuff as I go along, and it's clear I didn't budget for enough for monitors (actually, didn't budget at all, since I thought I could use cans) but we all live and learn.

Hsien, thanks for the Yama pointer.

On the same subject, has anyone any experience of Behringer Truth B2031A's?

Okay I know some of you will laugh at this, but just remember that 'low-cost' DIY is a way of life for indie filmmakers. If we can get 50% of the performance for 5% of the cost, it's a grand accomplishment!

It all started when I found a pair of sealed (but of course used) 1st class airline headphones, the noise-cancelling kind, lying on a seat in an airport terminal. The range was decent, but they just didn't have enough kick from a regular headphone jack.

So I bought a poor man's 'hearing aid' for $5 from ebay. Basically it's a mic with an amp and a headphone jack that runs off a single AAA battery. I replaced the microphone with a mono jack and sturdied up the case with electrical tape and sealant.

$6 in the hole and I have an amplified monitor that runs for months off a single AAA battery. And I don't worry too much when someone accidentally drops them.

Hi Greg,
My two cents worth, having gone through this issue recently.

Just because editing software allows you to do everything yourself (video, audio, effects), doesn't mean you should. You can very well edit video with a basic set of audio monitors and for more complex/critical projects, do the final mix somewhere else with someone who knows what they are doing and who will most likely have their own set-up including much better reference monitors than you need to invest in.


For basic video editing, you can use multimedia speakers, essentially a little better than your average computer speakers, but not quite reference monitors, such as; Behringer MS-40 (about $130 pair) , and Edirol/Roland MA-15D ($180 pair). if you can't distinguish your dialogue on these, chances are you don't have very good audio. Some will even argue that these speakers probably reflect better what the average viewer will actually hear at home...

Just above that price range (approx $300/pair) you begin to find your basic reference monitors which are actually well suited for small rooms: Alesis M1 Active 520, Behringer Truth 2030A mentioned below, and Events ALP5. Personally this is what I've opted for (Events), given that audio is always a longer term investment. They are not perfect, but once you get used to their particularities they work quite well for editing.

Lastly, if you own a good stereo amplifier, you can pick up a decent pair of passive reference monitors such as Behringer B2030P or Alesis One Mk2 passive for under $200.


Hope this helps

The Difference between Nothing and Something
 

Reading a post on this forum last Fall, I realized the consumer grade equipment I was using for event video work was probably producing deafness in my ability to hear the audio.

I did some research here and elsewhere, and purchased a set of M-Audio BX5a's and an M-Audio 192 PCI card for a total of ~$300.

The difference has been amazing. Good news: I can hear words that previously were unintelligible. Live recorded music sounds full and pleasant. ~Bad News: listening to the DVD's on a normal TV disappoints. I wish everyone had the audio system to hear what's really there. But that's up to the client. I've fulfilled my end of the bargain.

Since implementing this upgrade last October, I've seen an increase in urgency and motivation to record better audio. There's beauty I'm missing and want to capture via better recording practices and gear.

Granted there's plenty of upgrade room for this audio setup, but my ears tell me at least I'm in the ballpark and maybe even on the playing field.

ciao,
Scott

Alesis One Mk2 were the worst sounding speakers I've ever heard! Sent them straight back.

ps. I know that monitors are designed to be flat, not pleasing to the ear, but I found these speakers just offensive to my ears!

There is a huge amount of marketing hype behind audio monitors.

If you're really serious about audio monitors, you really can't buy cheaply. The Mackie 824 powered monitors are a good place to start.

Regards,

Ty Ford

My recommendation. . . coming from the audio recording business. . . would be to skip the monitors at this point and just buy a pair of Sennheiser HD-650 open-back headphones on Ebay for $325. They are, to a whole lot of professionally-qualified ears, the finest headphones on the planet. A number of people are actually using these phones to mix music with these days, including super stud George Massenberg (inventor of the parametric equalizer).

Seldom in life are normal folks actually able to buy "the best" equipment available, but in the case of the Sennheiser HD-650, that just isn't the case. They sound simply awesome, are incredibly comfortable to wear, and the mixes you'll make with them will translate well to other settings. And, best of all, you don't have to worry about how your room sounds!

Lovers of Etolytics and Grados will no doubt disagree, but most folks consider the HD-650s the best of the breed.

If you are insistent upon monitors, the JBLs are very nice, but the smart money these days is on the mid-to-high-end Adam monitors (which have sort of taken over the place of the Genelecs). . . but those will cost you upwards of $3000 for a pair. And you still have to worry about sound-treating your room! And trust me, it is a whole heck-of-lot harder (and probably more expensive) to make a room sound good than it is to buy a pair of great monitors.

Unfortunately, you probably won't be able to use the HD-650s on the set, unless you really turn them down low or stand quite a ways back from the mics. Those open backs really transmit sound into the air.

Stephen

I would never trust headphones only for a mix.


Regards,

Ty Ford

Stephen and Ty both make great points:

* For a small amount of money you can get world-class headphones. You don't need furniture to support them, and you don't need room treatments to optimize them. No matter where you are (aside from noisy environs), they give consistent results.

However,

* Don't rely on headphones alone. They don't image properly, they don't tell you if something is out of phase, and they make small details sound more forward than they will sound in a real mix.

Personally, I like owning good studio headphones. (Mine are Senn HD280-Pros.) For $99 I got a top quality product that will never need an upgrade. On the other hand, with a $500 pair of monitors I'd be itchin' for an upgrade from day one.

The best uses of headphones are
* when you need to be quiet in consideration of others
* when you need to block outside noises
* when you're doing a sanity check and want a second opinion
* and, of course, for live recording and multitracking

But like Ty wrote, don't use headphones as your only monitors for a mix.

There are some problems that can occur in a mix that will go undetected if all you use are headphones. For example, even something as basic as having one channel accidently inverted in phase with respect to the other will be noticable when listening on monitors due to the comb filtering it produces but the effect will be inaudible on phones because it is generated by the sounds from the speakers interacting with each other in the air.

I'm starting the think that another 'must-have' part of an editing workstation would be an inexpensive home theatre receiver and basic surround speaker setup to check even regular stereo mixes. I've noticed a number of incidents while watching regular broadcast TV on my home theatre system the last few years where the sound suddenly goes wonky for a few moments and I've finally learned the likely reason. My audio receiver defaults to Dolby Pro-Logic when getting a conventional stereo signal from the cable box. Every so often, the sound goes very diffuse with the dialog jumping from the front channels over into the rear surrounds. I've recently learned this is a phenomenon called 'phase flip' that is a characteristic of a Dolby decoder when it's presented with a stereo signal containing mono material appearing at equal levels on the left and right channels and one channel's phase is inverted. The out-of-phase condition causes the decoder to send material that should appear front centre into the surrounds instead. Because this is something that only happens sporadically and with specific progam material, most often local ads and promos, I can only conclude that the problem is caused either by a faulty stereo mix of the original program material or an interconnect or piece of equipment somewhere along the broadcast chain having one channel inverted (if it was my setup it would be constant with all program material). Trying to mix only on cans makes it even more likely such a thing could get by undetected.

I actually have w of the behringer B2030P monitors and I bought a small used Alesis RA-100 studio amplifier to power them. The amp was under $100 on ebay. I've been quite pleased with the Flatness of the monitors. I have everything running through an Eurorack UB1622FX mixer. This allows me to add reverb or delay or any number of effects to my audio as I capture (if needed.) I know Behringer is known for backwards technology, which means they get other companies gear and take it apart in order to copym but I am very pleased with the quality they produce for someone like me on a budget.

I've got a picture of it under the last page of post pics of your setup

They are not top of the line, and seldom talked about, but I love my Yahama MSP-5's. Self powered and $500 for the pair. You will need to get a sub for low critical work, but they seem to hold their own in that price bracket.

Hi Bennis,

The speakers you are referrring to are speced at only going down to 75Hz.

The woofer is only 6 3/4" in diameter, which explains the lack of LF.

There is a universe below 75Hz that can not be ignored. These speakers simply are not capable of reproducing those frequencies.

An analogy might be a video monitor that shows red and green, but not so much blue.

You need monitors with the dimensions and the power to let you hear what's going on. Then you have to actually put them in the right places. Otherwise it can be a confusing and painful experience when your mix doesn't translate to monitors in the outside world, especially ones in theaters and bigger home theater systems.

Regards,

Ty Ford

I agree the great monitors are the best way to fly, but I must heartily disagree about the inability to notice phase idiosyncracies over headphones. Just a few milliseconds of phasing error is all that's necessary for me to hear it in normal vocal frequencies every time. (Three milliseconds is easy to hear except at the top of the audio spectrum. . . where I'm probably deaf, anyway. . . and 10 milliseconds is considered "phase coherent" for almost all audio purposes.)

When something is 180 degrees out of phase it makes my head almost explode. Comb filtering adds to the effect, of course, but I can hear it every time.

Stephen

Ty,

Understand that you know more then I could ever hope to and I fully respect your opinion on the matter.

However, they do go lower then 75Hz, by a long shot. I have been using them (not claiming to be a great mixer) for the past three years now and yes, they do go lower.

I was trying to keep in mind his situation and financial standpoint.

But again, I would bow to Mr. Ford's word before mine on any day, and twice on Sundays...

I used to think that but I was recently very surprised to hear the phasing in some tracks, only to find that the difference was 3 mSec. This was the difference between an analog wireless mic and a digital wireless mic, with both mics clipped to me.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty or anyone, just wondering if you've heard anything or had experience with Blue Sky monitor systems? I read earlier this evening that Skywalker Sound this past year has equipped all their edit rooms with Blue Sky 'System 1' 2.1 systems which seems a pretty good reccomendation. Full compass lists their System 1 2.1 system with 2 monitors and a sub for $1800 and they also have their pro desktop system, slightly smaller monitors and sub for about $1200. Wondering if they're worth a look.

nope, not yet.

If I was going for new monitors, I'd go for ADAMs at this point in time.

Regards,

Ty

We have a BlueSky system in our smaller room, and it's very impressive. Blue Sky also provided a 5.1 system for a tour we did a couple years back when they were developing their smaller system, and it was a crankin' sweet system, IMO. Skywalker has indeed put System 1's into their smaller edit rooms.
IMO, very much worth a listen.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what degree of audio excellence is expected from a Skywalker small edit room? Did Skywalker pay for them or were they "placed?"

Regards,

Ty Ford

That's why I asked the question :) The fact that their rooms are so equipped can have all sorts of meanings.

I'm not sure there is a "right" way to take the question. We demand a very high level of excellence out of our smaller rooms.
Having done work on several occasions at Skywalker, I'll say that excellence and detail is simply part of the flow, period, whether it's a sound design room or scoring room. Do they expect smaller rooms to equal the Kurasawa or Kubrick rooms? Of course not. But the direct edit bays are also not just converted offices or bedrooms, either.
I also don't believe Skywalker would sell themselves out over something as miniscule as a low-cost set of monitors if they didn't really believe in them whether they were "placed" or not. Being the most prestigious audio facility in the world demands a certain level of integrity, IMO. You can see photos of the rooms on the Skywalker site, and you'll note that while not all of the 36 direct edit bays have BlueSky monitors, most of them do.
Considering the list of very high profile projects that have been mixed, recorded, or edited on BlueSky systems, I'd again suggest they're worth a listen. They may not be for you, they may not be the best, but they're a damn good monitoring system in their price bracket.

Thanks Doug,

Your insight about the rooms is exceedingly valuable.

On a parallel topic, Yamaha NS10 monitors got a huge lift (and not necessarily a deserved one) by being seen on console meter bridges. Somehow people got the impression that NS10s were killer monitors. They weren't/aren't really, but seeing them on those big consoles on the cover of MIX magazine gave that impression.

They are good as another set of monitors to help give you a better idea of what you're doing, but I'd hate to mix a project on them as my only monitors or my primary monitors.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty is quite correct. . . NS-10s are very popular monitors. Even more so are the Mackie HR-824s. I actually have a pair of those right now, and while they are used in more "indie" studios than any other powered monitors, I wouldn't recommend them for critical work at all. But for a smallish bookshelf speaker, they sure do go deep. I think they are only down about 3db at 37hz!

Stephen