Wireless Shotgun Configuration?
 

Has anyone used their ME66/K6 with a wireless system? Are there any technical barriers to doing so? The practical barrier I see, at least with my Samson UHF wireless system, is the size of the XLR connectors. The standard lav uses a small-size XLR. I would imagine I could find an adapter?

I've done it many time without any difficulty. If the transmitter has a headphone jack the boom operator can monitor the sound that way. My transmitter also has a specialized connector, TA5F (AKA Mini XLR). Switchcraft makes the connectors, so I made a specialized cable (mini XLR to XLR) for boom operation.

Jeff

Would the Samson AX1 handheld transmitter work with the ME66/K6 combination (The spec says for dynamic mics, but does that really just mean self-powered mics?)

Jeff or Don,
Do you have an online source where I can get a couple of XLR-to-mini XLR adapters? I've scoured Markertek, my normal source for such stuff, but to no avail.

Thanks very much.

This is where I got mine http://locationsound.com/salescatalog.html Download #4 connectors PDF and you'll find a reference to them. I forget what they cost, maybe $10 each. Mine are made my Switchcraft.

Jeff

Thanks very much, Jeff.

The irony: Switchcraft's plant is located right here in Chicago, perhaps 5 miles north of where I am.

Maybe you can take a field trip and pickup a couple of adapters in their gift shop before you leave.

Jeff

One Darn Thing Leads to Another
 

Discovering that my Samson system's transmitter really does not have a headphone jack (which I thought it did), and unable to locate a wireless system that does feature a headphone on the transmitter, I realized that this idea was a bit hobbled. After all, how effective could a boom operator be if s/he can't monitor the sound?

So how could I best break the wired link between the camera and a boom?

Bottom line: I ended up buying an HHb MD500 MiniDisc recorder, largely on the strength of posts by Peter Wiley as well as a review published on the L.A. Final Cut Pro Users Group site. Of couse I also had to grab a PortaBrace case for it and a clap-slate (for synch). Harumph.

Here's what I do. I use the Sound Devices http://www.sounddevices.com/index.html MM-1, microphone preamp and headphone monitor. The output of the MM-1(line level) feeds the input to the Lectrosonics http://www.lectrosonics.com/ UM 100 belt pack transmitter (accommodates line level). The receiver attaches to the camera or goes to a remote truck etc. You can still feed DAT/MD from receiver or from MM-1. I've using this for almost a year now and the boom operator enjoys the luxury of no cords.

Jeff

Ah, you sneaky guy. You had another gizmo! Looks like a great solution that ultimately affords the boom operator more capabilties than simply monitoring the mic without cables.

Thanks, again, Jeff.

Well, I was sorta forced into it. All my shotguns are phantom power. I stumbled onto the MM-1 while looking for a phantom power supply. Then the light bulb went off over my head and I realized I could use it to go wireless. The rest is history.

Jeff

The MM-1 looked irresistibly handy, albeit a tad $ Had to get one of those, too. Thanks, again, for the tip.

That's what I thought at first, too. But, the quality of construction is the best I've seen and the audio quality is, well, transparent. It's almost impossible to overload, it handles whatever you throw at it.

Jeff

Jeff,
Just wanted to follow-up to let you know that the Sound Devices MM-1 mic preamp with headphone monitor is perfect. Exactly what I needed. Finally I can rig a boom for wirelesss operation while providing the operator with a headphone monitor.

Those folks at Sound Devices are definitely serious folks. As you noted, this thing is built to take much heavier duty than I'll be subjecting it to. It's also very sonically transparent and can nicely mitigate the mic's signal if needed.

Thanks so much for the tip!

Awesome link, Ken.

Just to make sure I understand it correctly, I would have to get the boom mic connected to the Sound Devices MM-1 mic preamp with headphone monitor, and then connect that to a wireless system, correct?

I have a couple of questions about this wireless boom rig: Is it easy to monitor the levels with this system (for someone who has very little audio experience)? Is the audio quality of a wireless system less than that of a wired system? If it's on par, it certainly would make life much easier in post.

Thanks again for your help!
Jaime

(Jaime, I moved your latest post over here to prevent others' confusion.)

Yes, you basically have the configuration correct. The mic plugs into the MM-1 mic preamp. The MM-1 then connects to the wireless transmitter. The boom operator's headphones plug into the MM-1. The MM-1 also has facilities to attach a communication system, such as a walkie-talkie, to facilitate voice communication between director, camera operator and boom operator. In such a configuration the MM-1 sends the walkie talkie comm through one of the headphone's earpieces. (If you're envisioning the fully-loaded boom operator at this point, you may be thinkng that suspenders might be a good choice of attire.)

The boom operator can manage the signal sent to the transmitter by simply dialing the MM-1's level. The MM-1 also has a user-controlled 2-stage (80 Hz and 160 Hz) high-pass filter which enables it to eliminate excessive low-frequency rumble. Last, the MM-1 has a user-controllable limiter to prevent clipping under very loud consitions. So the gadget really packs alot of value into a small bundle.

Of course, if sending the signal back to the camera's audio ports, the camera operator (GL2, XL1s, et.al.) has the last word on signal level since he can dial it up or down. The camera operator can also monitor sound as it's coming in from the wireless receiver. At this end it's no different than using any other wireless configuration.

I should note that the MM-1 can certainly be used as a wired preamp inline with a hard-wired configuration to the audio deck or camera.

Jeff really turned me on to this MM-1. I think it's a great gadget that, although not cheap, belongs in many videographers' quiver of arrows.

Thanks again, Ken! I'll be doing some more research on sound recording, but right now I'm pretty much sold on the MM-1 wireless setup. It's cheaper than a DAT recorder and the MiniDisc recorder from HHB you got, plus the audio will be in sync with the video from the get-go!

Thank you for your recommendations, and for taking the time with a DV newbie. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress of my project this summer.

Jaime

If you don't mind lugging around another piece of equipment, what I have done in the past is have my sound guy bring his ham radio handie talkie (it's tiny and frequency agile!), dial up the frequency of the wireless transmitter and patch it to his headphones.

That way, he can also monitor for interference if I happen to have my phones off for a sec. You can also do the same thing with a police scanner (that has wide-FM mode) with a belt-clip.

Although I am certain that audiophile purists might disagree, it's a good alternative if you happen to have a scanner sitting around and don't mind carrying an extra item on your belt. Most (although not all) have an receive RF bandwidth of 20khz on wide FM, so there's little chance of clipping since most RF mic transmitters have a RF TX bandwidth of 15khz.

As an added bonus, I sometimes use that technique to "borrow" audio from the venue's wireless mics if I am doing a wedding video and I need an extra feed. I just use the appropriate balun and adaptors and jack it into my mixer.

That's just my opinion... I could be wrong... : )

-Phil

Just as a note of caution on using radios near prosumer cameras (pro cameras are usually better shielded) this link might be of interest. Radios can cause problems (RFI) when used in close proximity.

Jeff

You have an excellent point, Jeff.

Near-field RF from a transmitter can certainly wreak havoc on lesser-shielded prosumer cameras. Everything from image-shift to wavy lines in the picture, up to and including total failure of the camera. Especially when the antenna is close to the camera in the scenario I mentioned.

Our HTs are capable of outputting several watts of RF when keyed-up in transmit mode-- more than enough to cause problems.

However, in receive mode, commercial and amateur transceiver gear emits no more RF than a camera-mounted wireless mic receiver. In fact, even *less* than some of the wireless receivers I've looked at on the RF spectrum analyzer while they were on my repair bench.

The only RF emitted on these items (wireless recievers, scanners and amateur/commercial gear in receive mode) is from the local oscillator and PLL circuit, and this is usually -60bB to -90dB. Merely microwatts in comparison to the average 50 milliwatt part-15 or 500mw part-90 wireless mic transmitter.

Using gear in the above scenario, one will have to be prudent to *never* to accidentally key up and transmit (moot point using a scanner) lest you potentially fry your camera's delicate innards... Somthing we are very careful *not* to do!

Thanks for bringing that point up!

-Phil

Follow-Up
 

For anyone following this thread, I inquired earlier about a "XLR-to-mini XLR adapter". This is a short cable that has a 3-pin male XLR connector at one end and a much smaller 3-pin female XLR plug at the other. I found these cables, which are technically called XLR to P3 adapters for sale at Samson's site.

Re: Follow-Up
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka : For anyone following this thread, I inquired earlier about a "XLR-to-mini XLR adapter". This is a short cable that has a 3-pin male XLR connector at one end and a much smaller 3-pin female XLR plug at the other. I found these cables, which are technically called XLR to P3 adapters for sale at Samson's site. -->>>


Is this needed for the MM-1 Mic preamp and wireless setup discussed in the last few posts? Or does the MM-1 use the regular XLR cables?

Thanks!

Good question Jaime. Here's how the configuration looks.

Mic --(XLR)-->MM-1 preamp--(XLR-->XLR to P3)-->Samson UHF 32 transmitter

Some brands of wireless transmitters might not require this P3-style connector.

The MM1 looks like a great piece of gear but $$$$$. Any thoughts on using a splitter out of the mic, one leg to the wireless transmitter, and a much less expensive mic pre-amp that would just feed the headphones? In my case, where I'm most worried about the sound guy aiming for maximum sound level, I'm thinking it may be more cost effective. Just not sure what impact feeding two sources with the mic would have.

The "on the cheap" solution I'm looking at using is a Rolls PM50sOB portlable headphone amp. It just has a straight-thru mic connection (XLR in, XLR out), and pulls off and amplifies a headphone signal for monitoring. Can be powered by a 9V. B&H has them for $65.

http://www.rolls.com/new/pm50sob.html

Brain, THANKS! Exactly what I had in mind. Just ordered it so I'll let you know how it works. As it always seems, if you can imagine it, someone else has and has already built it. This list is GREAT.

The Rolls looks like a good inexpensive solution! Much less expensive than the MM-1. Well, I guess you can always spot the 'pioneers' by the arrows sticking out of their chests and their pockets turned inside-out.

When I bought my Sennheiser evolution kit I opted fot the one that included the butt plug mic transmitter. It works out to be $100 more.

And if you are going to use Ham radio gear you need to be licensed to transmit with it. You can listen without being licensed, but you definitely need a license to transmit. A scanner is probably the safer route to go so as to not accidently key the transmitter.

Nick

About interference...

I am seriously considering the wireless shotgun configuration described above (with mm-1 preamp). I just realized that a lot of the scenes in my upcoming project take place inside a computer lab, with about 30 real computers turned on at the same time.

Do you think that the ammount of electronic equipment and cables in that room will create any kind of interference with the wireless system? Or does regular computer equipment not create interference on audio recording? Would I just be safer recording my audio to a separate device (such as the HHB Portadisc) that is not wireless? I've budgeted about $2000 for all my sound recording equipment. Obviously, cheaper is better, but not at the expense of quality.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

I sometimes have been forced to use wired over wireless (and vice versa) because of excessive RFI. It's one of those things that you can't predict until you get on location. I've had florescent lights cause RFI with wired mics and speaker phones cause problems with wireless mics.

Jaime,
It's hard to say whether or not you'll have trouble. As Jeff notes, the culprits often tend to be the last things you'd expect.

What wireless system do you use? Do you think you'll have an opportunity to scout the location and test your set ahead of time? You wouldn't need to bring the camera, just the transmitter, perhaps a lav, the receiver and a set of headphones (assuming your receiver enables headphone connection).

Regardless, I'd certainly bring a good ol' long XLR cable along for the shoot just to be safe.

Well, I don't have a wireless system yet. I won't really have a chance to record tests on location until about a week before the shoot begins, and at that point I don't think I'll have time to replace my equipment, should there be problems with whatever wireless system I get.

I'm beginning to think that a wireless shotgun configuration isn't necessarily the best for my needs. After reading the LAFCPUG review of the HHB PortaDisc and the comments of people here, it would seem that hooking up my boom mic to the PortaDisc might work better for me. I'm a bit skeptical about a wireless ANYTHING, especially when it would be the ONLY audio track I would have. If I get the MiniDisc recorder with the boom mic, and also hook up a quality shotgun mic to the camera (DVX100), I would have 2 sources of audio to choose from during post. This would make me feel a lot safer during the shoot.

Thoughts? Comments? Am I completely out of my mind?

What's the nature of the project and shoot, Jaime?

Well, it's a 90 min feature on MiniDV. It's a romantic comedy that is set in a High School, and about a third of the scenes take place in a computer lab. If all goes well, I will be aiming for an eventual transfer to 35mm film, for theatrical distribution.

As of now, I'm planning on using a Panasonic DXV100 for video, and will be attempting to make the movie as professional as possible, in terms of production values. One of the areas that I am least familiar with is location audio recording. Many of the scenes are rather dialogue heavy, with conversations between 5 or 6 characters at the same time. Several other scenes have dialogue between 2 people as they walk along hallways, and that sort of thing. I was planning on getting a Senheiser ME66/K6 on a boom, and attempt to record each character's side of the conversation individually, and then try to put all the pieces together in post.

I was looking into the whole wireless shotgun configuration, because many of the shots will be on a jib arm, and if the boom mic is connected to the XLR inputs of the DVX100, it might limit the motion of the jib or of the boom operator. I don't know, maybe it could work, and I could save a bunch of money just by getting a really long XLR cable and having the boom mic always attatched to the camera.

My other options were to connect the boom mic to the camera wirelessly, or to record the sound to a different device altogether (HHB PortaDisc). With a budget of $2000 for all sound equipment, including shotgun mic, boom pole, and cables, which do you think would give me the best quality audio?

If you have any other questions, let me know.

Since this is being staged, are you able to turn off the computers that will not appear on screen? One or two computers should not present too much, if any, RFI. If you need a wide shot to establish location and you want the computers all on then maybe capture the audio separately. The fewer the computers on, the less the potential for audio problems from them.

Cables to the jib arm are less than ideal. I would either do the wireless shotgun or the portable option. Sync is not that difficult if you give yourself an audible cue (clapboard) at the start of each scene.

Given your project description I'm inclined to vote for using separate audio, such as from an HHb PortaDisc. Classrooms and labs can be difficult settings. I think that de-coupling your boom from your camera might make things more flexible.

I would not completely discount the use of a wireless shotgun setup. The DXV1000 reportedly has excellent audio circuitry. But, since you have no current wireless setup this would be new ground for you to plow, also.

If you decide to get the HHb give yourself, or your sound man, time to become familiar with it and get it set-up correctly.

Jeff,

Yes, I will be able to turn off most of the computers for many of the shots. The few that need to show all the computers turned on don't really need audio at the same time.

Ken,

I'll definitely give my sound man time to get familiar with whatever audio equipment we end up getting. I guess at this point it's between getting the Portadisc and just getting the MM-1 preamp and connect it to the camera (certainly less expensive, plus no sync during post), since the DVX100 supposedly has great audio.

I still have to ponder this for a while, since I have a couple of months before I have to buy anything. I will keep you all up to date on whatever I decide.

Thanks so much for your advice!

How are you wiring the MM-1 into your camera?

Um, I'm assuming that I could just plug the line-out of the MM-1 into one of the XLR inputs of the DVX100, no? Am I missing something here? I don't have the MM-1 yet, but looking at the info on their website (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/mm1master.htm) it seems like I could do that. If not, I too would like to know how to connect the MM-1 to the camera. ;)