Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Uh, NO. If you still somehow haven't figured it out, you think VERY differently from most people and don't have a good sense of objective judgment about the way the things you put out there come across to others, which is why you're often baffled by the criticism you get. Most of us can use outside opinions on our art because we are too close to it to judge it objectively; you REALLY need this.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I think a good example was given before concerning brass.

Ryan, imagine for a minute that we are back in silent film days, with a live pianist in the movie theatre providing accompaniment to each film that is shown. In one scene, a guy is in a barroom talking and laughing with friends; the piano plays something upbeat and maybe major key. Next scene there is a barroom brawl; the piano plays something more energetic, maybe some strident chords (or dischords) as the punches land. Next scene, our hero wins the fight; piano plays a fanfare. Then the protagonist jumps on his horse and rides away; the piano plays some "galloping" kind of music. Later the protagonist is in military uniform, marching to battle with other soldiers; the piano plays a march. And so on. At the end of the film, the protagonist is in a casket, we see the lid closed and the casket lowered into the ground; the piano plays taps. ... The next movie is a Buster Keaton comedy with entirely different mood to the music ... same piano.

For many people, for many years, the music did convey the proper mood to match each scene on the screen. And it was all played on the same piano. Imagine that's what you have to work with, and quit obsessing about telling the composer how to compose. How much time have we wasted debating whether a bass flute sounds to you like a clarinet (or whatever)?

The Pope did not tell Michelangelo what color paint to use, and certainly not whether to use Sherwin-Williams or Pratt & Lambert.

When I went to the hospital to have my gall bladder removed, I didn't tell the surgeon where to make the incision or which tool to use. I didin't tell her which kind of knot to use on the stitches. I didn't even tell the pre-op orderly how to shave my belly. I am not a surgeon or a surgical orderly. And you are not a musician.

Since you seem to believe in micro-management, here is my micro-management directive to you: Do not begin your reply with "Oh, okay." Not just today, but for the next seven days. How does that sit with you? Do you like being micro-managed? How does micro-management affect your composer and other collaborators?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

"SHOULD"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. That will be determined by the movie's success or failure.

Perhaps what the composer wants reflects what the audience wants. After all, he's hopefully a somewhat successful musician, and admitted you are not.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Greg, good analogy with the silent movie. But I have a feeling we're all talking in circles.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh we definitely are. But I thought we were all ok with that and agreed that posting in these threads was a fun waste of time while we await the sweet embrace of death?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

"FUN"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. ;-)

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan asks continually for advice, and when he gets it, he totally ignores it, or tries to convince us that he's right and we're wrong. Happens all the time, but I hope one day, the light bulb will go on and he'll realise.

I really would be pleased if he just tried some of our thoughts once in a while. or maybe we could just tell him he is right and he'd be happy.

Frankly, though - some things just make my jaw drop - such basic concepts that he doesn't get. Like this.
Surely if we listen to any piece of music, we can, without any training, say it sounds happy, or sad, or angry. Kids at school do not get taught this - but some instruments get tagged with emotions. Saxophones are sexy, strings are sad, brass can be military, and so on - but then for every sexy sax, there will be one absolutely NOT sexy, and the romantic sad strings suddenly make going into the shower very scary.

So many times it is NOT the instrument but the notes it plats and how it's played. If you limit the pallette the composer can use, you really do tie a hand behind their back.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I mean, I agree, but at this point it can't possibly be 'cause anyone thinks anything we post here will actually help. Maybe it's the modern day equivalent of flagellating ourselves with a cat o' nine tails in punishment for our own sins?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan seems to be confusing what he personally likes with what everyone else might like. All this is subjective and, as usual, he seems to be copy and pasting rather than trying to sense what the film itself may require so that it stands out.

It may be the case that a piece of music he personally hates may be what is best for the film.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I'm just doing penance for the pain I caused the adults around me when I was about ten years old and was always right because I knew everything about everything. Now I know slightly less.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

When you’ve taught music in college you realise that what people individually like can be wildly different. We also change our own likes. I keep remembering the first music I ever bough on a double LP. Goodbye yellow brick road. Still love it. Yet all the others I bought in the seventies I now hate. Spotify has them all, but some I cannot stand now!

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

From the things you mention in your post I imagine you headbanging in your studio to Metallica and Motorhead.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

And what were the rest of them, Paul? Just imagining you in a disco outfit. ;-)

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Okay so if my judgment of music is not the best then, and I should find out if the what I have in mind will work for the audience then, should I wait until the final cut of the movie, put the example tracks in then temporarily, and show it to an audience and ask them if they feel the types of tracks I have in mind would work then, before showing a composer those example tracks; or how else do you find out what the audience would think would work then?

Plus I didn't think I was ignoring all the advice, and I took a lot of the advice on here before. For example it was said to not use the harmonica, cause it wouldn't fit, so I didn't ask the composer to use it now, as a result of the advice. It's just some of the advice is risky, like if a composer gives me a track in the past, I didn't think worked with what I was going for, and the advice is to just let go with it anyway, it seems risky.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Actually it was Status Quo and AC/DC. And now 40years later I’m in a Beach Boys band - you can have a laugh at my expense. Here’s us at the Abu Dhabi formula 1, pre-covid! Like the shirt?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

It was also said on here that some of my choices of example tracks were good, so I didn't think they were too bad so far.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You still miss the point Ryan - it is NOT the instruments, it's the context of those instruments in those pieces - they just work. The harmonica in westerns - it became a cliche sound. It was never the best, but for one movie it fitted, so another movie tried it and then at some point it stopped being in used. That doesn't make the harmonica a wrong choice - it was rejected and that's fine - it's evolution. You want to have a list that has instruments matched to genres and moods, and that doesn't work.

What I'm saying is that composers choose the sounds to match the piece - they often nowadays don't even know what it is. I'll try to explain. I had this one to do - the visuals were fish - tropical fish and carp type things. I used a piece of public domain classical music and used synths and samplers rather than conventional instruments, and I actually started with a Harmonica - I suspect it could have been our chats on the forum that made me think harmonic was good, but it wasn't and evolved into a treated celeste - which with all the layers of stuff all adding flavour I think worked pretty well. For context, imagine a dark exhibition booth with the rear wall made up not of TV monitors but fish tanks against black backgrounds - with this playing. So the arrangement uses most of the notes Camille Saint-Saens wrote a long time ago - but with different instruments to his version. I also did a version of Clare de Lune which also has that wobbly kind of background and the two were cycled through and probably drove the stand people mad for three days.

You have in your head a sound and it's glued to a movie. You need to understand that guide and demo tracks are just that - examples of the kind of thing - NOT something for a musician to rigidly follow. Most musicians I know would fall into two camps. Do whatever the client asks for and if it's rubbish, it's their fault, or those who would suggest or try to explain. clients who rigidly hang onto flawed choices rarely go far.

Here is a link.
There's a screenshot if it helps.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

As an aside. I used "The Aquarium" as a temp track in one of my films. The composer went for the feel and mood of it, using different instruments, with the music that he composed for the soundtrack.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

That's the point Ryan doesn't get I think, Brian - they're a stimulus, and not a rigid formula to follow. I've got a kind of unofficial 2 tier pricing for this kind of music. Public domain classical style can save client budget, or they can have totally new. One got me - he liked a piece of Satie - put wanted a unique one so I wrote a No. 4. I was rather pleased when I saw somebody discussing it and telling a friend there was actually a much less well known no.4 - which turned out to be mine!

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, when it comes to context, I felt that the example tracks I picked were in context with the story and script though or at least I thought so.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You know what you like - nobody is doubting that, the question is what about the audience?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh well what if I put the example tracks in a cut of the movie, just temporarily and showed it to a test audience and get thier opinions on the tracks, if that's best?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan the larger issue that comes up in every topic is you struggle with decision making and judgement. Seems like stubbornly clinging to rules or copying other movies is a coping mechanism you've developed.

Everyone, including a child has opinions and knows what they like, but this doesn't mean that they are qualified to make good decisions.

We can't answer your questions and you can't understand our answers because you lack an underlying fundamental ability needed to direct and produce a movie.

Why do you think there are no indie film makers here asking the type of questions you ask?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan, if you show it to a test audience, you would not believe them if they said anything other than your own opinion. You do this all the time.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Well I can try to keep an open mind then and follow the advice. If my judgment is not as good then, should I do the test audience method?

I can try to follow the advice on here. The advice is, when working with a composer, let the composer choose the sounds. But if the sounds do not work I find after? What's the next step? Is the next step to show it to an audience and ask them if they think it works? If not, do I go back the composer and ask him if some adjustments can be made based on the audience's opinions?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

If your music is working properly the audience may not have an opinion on the music, they may only be aware of it if it's distracting.

An example of a film completely changing the music after a viewing is "Chinatown" , but it wasn't the result of the audience as such, just one highly experienced musician in the industry, who told Polanski that the original music was killing the film.

Robert Even then hired Jerry Goldsmith to compose a new score.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, that's interesting. What if I asked the composer for his opinion on my example tracks, would that be enough to know if the example tracks work with the movie or not, or should I get more people's opinions other than the composers?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You can use test screenings, in which the film as whole is tested to see if they understand and emote with it. Just doing it for the music alone is a waste of time., it has to be part of the whole.

However, you'll probably get differing opinions, so the director has to decide.,

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Do you trust your composer's opinion on the music, or don't you? Can he write music that works? It sounds like you have somebody who is either immune to your constant interference, guidance, advice, criticism or doesn't care.

You speak of your composer as if you don't trust him all the time. You think you know best, so why even have him work on it if you don't trust his judgement? I think most decent composers would find working like this impossible.

I n' remember if I mentioned it, but I had a new client just before Christmas and I fired him. He rejected advice, he didn't listen and kept moving the goalposts - so despite it being a ten week project, I knew I'd never get to the end and the end result would be compromised by his inability to set proper goals that we could achieve. I wished him luck, but told him I dirdn't think I'd be able to do his project. He tried to back track saying that he'd do this and that, but I stuck to my guns and turned work away, in this covid work starved year. If he asked my advice, requested costings and then rejected everything with really unsound reasons, I can't work like that.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I wouldn't be surprise the composer is working on trade for services or some sort on non monetary compensation. Can you really imagine a legit composer taking this project and putting up with all this? The client you described sounds like someone else we know.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I think Ryan would like to hum a tune, and tell the composer "Put that down on paper and have this instrument play it," then play him a clip of some given instrument (which Ryan cannot accurately identify/name). Maybe Ryan doesn't see what we call "composing" as a separate skill set, he's just interested in a transcriptionist/keyboardist to bring his (Ryan's) preconceived ideas to fruition.

I think we see a composer as being like an architect. We say "design me a palatial 3-bedroom house."

Ryan seems to see him as being the draftsman and/or carpenter. Ryan says "move this wall ... no, a bit more to the left ... no, make it like the wall I saw in someone else's house ... but stucco, not brick" and expects him eventually to pound the nails (i.e. play the keyboard).

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I actually missed that, but you're right. He was a really nice guy, but his lofty aims were all just problematic.

The only thing we can tell Ryan to do is stop even thinking about music now. Shoot the movie, do the edit - then do the music. It's been months/years so far, so there is clearly no hurry - if it ever gets made at all.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh well, it's just I am also storyboarding the script, but when I storyboard I feel that knowing the music beforehand really helps to know how the scene will be shot and cut since I know the tone and style of the scenes more, if I know the music.

I don't need music for every sequence of course, but for the ones that do have music, it really helps the storyboarding and shooting for the edit, if I know what the music is going to be. Even when I direct the acting, if I know the music beforehand, I feel that could help my directing of it.

Plus I am trying to budget everything out. If I know the instrument sounds beforehand, at the pre-production stage, then I know how much it would cost in the budget to by those samples. I was mostly doing this now, because of budget rather than spending an unknown amount of money later.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

That method probably works if you're doing animation or a music video, but things change so much on a live action feature film and you don't have the level of control needed to apply it on your budget and shooting schedule. All sorts of issues come and hit you, even when you have the resources.

Watch François Truffaut's "La Nuit américaine" "Day for Night" and you have a flavour of it.


You don't need to know the instruments before hand when doing the budget, just make a working assumption that you may need to purchase X number of samples in the music budget. If you don't need them in end the you can spend the money on something else, which you under budgeted.

When writing on one short film I used to listen to some pieces of music, during the editing we used them as temp tracks where they worked excellently. The composer watched the film once with the temp tracks, I gave him a copy without any music tracks, he came up with some suggestions.

I listened to them, then had a think on the way back home, one was an ear worm, so I phoned him from the car and told him to go with that one, plus another track for the darker stuff, The film's music sound track was build up from those two pieces.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

When you engage a lighting person, does he charge you for the software he uses to help the design? Does the sound person charge you for the update to his editing software? Does the makeup person charge you for a new bottle of gas for the spray?

You still have this ridiculous view of samples.


Scene 3a. Interior of a small house is Saskatoon. A young stressed looking man is sitting hunched in front of a laptop. The room is furnished entirely with bookcases, containing ring binders all marked "Rules" and numbered. On his screen is a zoom meeting, with a distinguished looking person clearly sitting in a world class recording studio.

Ryan: Hi Mr Zimmer, thanks for agreeing to compose the music for my new epic, and the fee you have suggested is acceptable to me, we will be shooting as soon as you send me the music so we can shoot appropriately?

Hans Zimmer: Thank you for agreeing the fee, Mr Elder, but vere is the rough cut?

Ryan: I was waiting for the music first?

Han Zimmer: er, OK, but do you have zer story board? That vould help me no end.

Ryan: No, I thought it better to not complete that, as I have to spend a great amount of time learning how to colour correct the storyboard first?

Hans Zimmer: Zis is very strange, can you give me any idea?

Ryan: Yes - remember those tracks I sent of my favourite movies - I want that kind of thing, and make sure you include a bass flute, I really want that.

Hans Zimmer: I can do a bass flute, but it vont fit with the ideas I got from your clips - I thought zey were just flavour?

Ryan: No - I really want that bass flute sound, although I've been told it might not actually be a bass flute - but I do want a harmonica, by the way.

Hans Zimmer: A harmonica? Is zat not rather Morricone?

Ryan: No - I really like it. Do you want me to buy the samples now?

Hans Zimmer: Samples? Vot would I be vanting samples for?

Ryan: You know - I've been told composers use samples

Hans Zimmer: Ve do - but I prefer to choose my own samples from my own collection.

Ryan: But then I may not like them?

Hans Zimmer: Mr Elder, I am a composer, I have spent years building a vorld class collection of equipment to produce my music. I do not need you to buy me anything. You agreed my fee, and I provide the music. If I need a sound, I need it instantly. I do not wait for you to buy it for me.

Ryan: But what if you don't have what I want

Hans Zimmer: Zen you find yourself a new composer, just like you vill have to do now. Goodbye!

The zoom session is terminated by the other party, leaving the young man staring at the blank screen - stunned and surprised by what just happened.

Fades to black
End

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Well a conversation I had with the composer before, did not go like that all. He said if I wanted certain sounds that he did not have, then he was fine with me getting them for him, as long they are not too strange or completely avante guarde per se, and as long as they fit.

I can wait till after the movie is made if that is best, but I was advised before to bring on a composer in pre-production, instead of waiting till post. Is there no reason to do that then?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

There's no set time for bringing in a composer. although they usually do the real work after the film has picture lock.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

How can you buy his sounds? It makes no sense? There are many reasons first is practical, he needs to get them, and then he can install them and you refund what he paid (and of course, he then has that new library - because it won\'t be one instrument normally - it will be another package. Normally, to get more stuff you need accounts and you just can\'t buy samples and give them to him.

he\'s seriously worrying me now. Are you sure he\'s a composer? He seems to be very unusual in how he works.

I cannot believe ANY composer would say "I\'ve not got that sound, so you get it" because we do NOT talk about sounds and samples - unless we are talking to a client who really doesn\'t get it.

This is all wrong Ryan - it\'s a road to a rubbish product.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Well that is what I meant. He picks out the samples, and I pay him for them. That\'s what I meant when I said I would buy the sounds. He has most of the instruments already, but not some of the sounds that were in the example tracks I gave him. But I would pay for them after he picked them out.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I\'m sorry for banging on and on - but when I\'m working and I need something I don\'t have, I am at a road block. In fact, usually the big problem for a composer is not having it, but finding it. Most sounds can be got via searches and selection - so today I wanted a melody instrument, and thought a flute sound would be OK, but there are thousands of them. So I thought maybe a synth flute would fit, that brought the choice down to a few hundred. I then spent a fruitless hour auditioning them and not finding what I wanted. So I started again with a clarinet sound, and again selected a filter to get rid of the real sounding ones, and I still don\'t have it. Now I\'m having to audition again and try to figure out which one of thousands of sounds. Do I keep searching until I find the right one? Yes. I cannot type in flute into Google and find some out of the way sample maker - I\'d be dead waiting for that. This is why I find it impossible to believe your composer doesn\'t have what you want - unless he has not been doing it very long and has not yet got a decent collection. It just seems very unusual.