Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Somehow, though, that's not how it turns out in real life. The passengers know what's coming when all the windows start rolling down simultaneously.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Sounds like someone who’s too comfortable and confident in their relationship with those other people

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

They'd do the same thing to me. That's why God created chili. Besides, at least I open the windows.


I just realized it's already Christmas across the pond, and soon will be here. So let me take a sec. to wish all of you Happy Holidays.

And best wishes for a 2021 that almost surely will be better than 2020. Check out the link I've posted in another thread:
https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv...ml#post1963000

Peace, out.
Greg

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Well some filmmakers advised me to save money and just do the music myself like other microbudget filmmakers have done such as Robert Rodriguez, Shane Carruth, or Melvin Van Peebles. But even though I know what sounds I want, I don't think I could actually compose the melodies though. But maybe it's worth a shot with practice to save money like they said... Of course this would be done in post, but just budgeting now.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan I hope nobody in your family ever needs surgery, as clearly, you could whip out the odd appendix, or fix a slipped disc.

Then best you could do is use the music from the tracks you like so much. I cannot believe a non-musical person really believes they have the skills and talent to do this? What is your piano playing like? Or any other instrument? I'm totally stunned.

I presume your composer has told you to stick it?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

No the composer is very interested still, I just don't know if he would be available later on, and I was still trying to save money.

I can play piano but it's mostly memorization of melodies that are already written down, rather than actually creating the music. But yeah, perhaps I am trying to do too much myself.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

No perhaps about it Ryan. Leave the music to musicians.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Sure, I can leave it to the composer. Thank you very much everyone for all the advice!

I was wondering, since music sampling has become so good now, does it look bad for a microbudget movie if the score is really good sounding, since it doesn't cost that much because of the technology? Like if the score sounds so much more higher budget than the rest of the movie, is that bad? Or is it good to go for the best score you can get?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Of course not, just as having really good acting or photography doesn't. It just means that talented people are working on the film and who are working for free in order to get experience. It all depends on the people the filmmaker knows and those who are available in their location and can be persuaded to work on the film.

You always go for the best you can achieve, but that will also depend on the people you're working with and any baggage you and they are bringing to the production.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You sort of answered it. Stop calling it sampling. It’s just music production, like using ‘film’ when we don’t use it anymore. Success is down to the skil of the person doing it and technology is no barrier, only to your wallet. If you are able to have high quality music, it’s never a negative because people don’t notice it. Everyone knows the Harry Potter music, but ONLY the theme. If you play the track called Hedwig’s Journey, do you remember that one, or even notice it in the movie?

In EVERY aspect of your movie, you should go for the best. Individually or collectively, less than your best is a fail. One good area does not recover the feel from the bad ones. The worst is what audiences remember.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Alright thanks. When I watch other microbudget movies, they don't go that big on the music, so I thought if I did, it might come off as overdone, if other ones do not. But if making it the biggest and best it can be is good, I can ask the composer to do that.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I really don't understand Ryan - when I get a commission to compose ANYTHING, I do my best to make it the biggest and best. I cannot imagine any musician needing to be asked to do that by the director or producer? Music doesn't;t have to be big of course - some movies might have huge orchestras, while others have a score done by one guy and a computer - the outcome has nothing to do with big or best, but simply most appropriate. If there was a sad scene - you could play a piece of sad piano music - just piano, and it could be an amazing fit. Frankly, now, you can be as big as you like I you have the right sounds in your arsenal.

I'd leave music alone Ryan - it's not something you understand or seem to be strong with.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Okay that makes sense. But the composer is leaving some things to my call to make, and I am not sure what call to make. I can save this for later after it's shot of course, but still wondering what call to make on certain things for later though of course.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

“Mr. Composer, my movie is going to be an underwhelming mess, and since I strive for tonal consistency, please make the music the same. Thanks homie.”

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Leave decisions as late as possible, because you'll change your mind in the meantime, so calls are a pointless exercise if not needed.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Big picture Ryan you don't have the budget for a composer. If you're able film this movie then you can come up with the most economical way to add music.

The composer no doubt has picked up on that you're an unqualified, indecisive micromanager, and has concluded it be waste of his time making musical decision that you'll likely override and change. You strike me as someone who pumps a professional for information then instead of hiring them, you try to do it yourself. You embody many "bad" client characteristics.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh I thought I had the budget for a composer or at least I could do the budget again. I asked the composer if I was micromanaging him, and he said no, I am fine, and he never felt that way.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

It could be that Ryan only has these exhaustive discussions on HERE and talks to his composer etc. once a month.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

In my whole life I have NEVER told a client that they're a pain to work with. None of your people every tell you the truth, that' very clear. I'm sure you're a lovely person, but you sound like a real client from hell. Last week I told a client that sadly, I will be too busy on a long term project to squeeze him in, and I was so sorry I could not assist him. He bombarded me with requests, clearly had no contingency budget and had believed the planning people who he'd obviously confused, so that they said he did not need planning permission when it was clear to me he did. All my alarm bells were ringing, so I made up an excuse, and breathed a sigh of relief.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay. Well I can only go by what he tells me I guess. He said that I was quicker to work with than most people, because the requests were much more specific compared to other clients, so the process was faster so far he said. But we can wait till the movie is over before we finish of course.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

it would be insane not to. otherwise you might throw out everything youve done up until that point cause you find out it doesnt work, and that would probably piss him off

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Well It was said before that I shouldn't pick the instruments and just let the composer pick them. However, int the past, the composer would pick ones I didn't like as much. They were okay but they just didn't pop. For example, there was one score a composer did for me where the harp was the lead instrument and the harp was not in any of the example tracks I gave the composer.

There is also another project, where the composer decided to have the french horn as the lead instrument and I just wasn't feeling the french horn as much. So shouldn't I have some say in the instrumental sounds therefore, depending if I feel they fit the tone, or no?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

No one's saying you shouldn't have input on the finished music. But a) really don't worry about it til you have an edited movie to score and b) tell the composer some general mood details, give him/her an example of your inspiration, let them do their thing (i.e. first draft), THEN criticize/refine/tweak.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Micromanaging again, Ryan? The example track is mood, feel, air, emotion, purpose, support and if your composer picked a hair because he felt it fitted thematically what he was seeing - then please forgive me - it is probable that you expected the same instrumentation but different notes maybe? That is not composition. You really want him to produce new, excellent music, but be tied down to instrumentation. It's rather like being ZZ Top, and being given a Metallica track as inspiration or guidance for something new, then complaining when it sounds like ZZ Top.

May the snag with the music is that you don't understand it because you are not musical. As the producer it's perfectly OK to not like it, but expecting to not get a harp, because it wasn't in the demo is a bit silly. The important thing was does the harp work? It's a bit silly that if you are musically compromised you still want to make decisions like these on your own?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Well I didn't feel the harp worked with what I was going for. The composer can come up with new instruments that are not in the example tracks that can work. But I didn't feel the harp worked in this case for what the mood and tone I was wanting. I don't want every instrument in the example tracks and the example tracks are not perfect, just the closest I could find.

What I could do is listen to what a composer has for me, and that if he came up with instruments that I feel worked, then great, but if I feel they don't fit, should I recommend a different instrument then for the tone, or what should I do if I feel certain instrumental sounds, don't fit the tone here and there?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan - I've read a bit of this thread, and you have legitimate questions that have been somewhat answered. My suggestion is to now concentrate on the big picture. Let me explain - when you were surprised to hear a harp when there was none in the temp score - does it work? Or does it create a different mood or impact than what you looking for? When you suggest specific instrumentation, do you think the composer(s) share your emotional understanding of what instrument "X" might provide? And doesn't the same (combinations of) musical instruments) deliver different outcomes? Brass can be militaristic (march), or mournful (taps) - or deliver any number of other emotional messages, depending on the musical notes themselves, and context.

Instead of getting bogged down with details such as instrumentation - and it is relatively secondary, as an effective score can work musically prior to definite instrumentation (as in played on a piano while intended for a chamber orchestra etc.) - concentrate on the emotional content you'd like the music to provide, scene and genre dependent. A simple example - a main character is troubled, but you want to indicate that there is still hope. Music can connote that hopefulness. Where you energy for music will be best served is to be able to clearly communicate, in depth, what the emotional and action-supportive needs for music are. As the filmmaker, you need to identify and make literal what you are trying to achieve. That is what you need to share with your collaborators - the emotional foundation you seek, and how you want the action to be supported. Whether that's via a harp or an accordeon only matters once there's a score whose essence communicates what you are looking for. That is how I like clients to approach me for music; I'm a trained composer (western classical) and organist who has mostly made a living as a filmmaker, with intense period of composing applied music for film.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You are the commissioner, so feel free to tell the composer you don't like it and have a conversation. Your recommendations might be (in musical circles) laughable - you are paying a musician to musische. If you had a dance routine in the movie, would you tell the choreographer how do do his/her job, or tell the set constructor what kind of joints he should be using? Your job is to say yes or no to what is offered, and try to explain why, so you can communicate. If you tell the artist who has no yellow in his pallet, he must use yellow, the result is never good.

You interfere too much Ryan. Leave the experts to do their thing without you tying their hands behind their backs. You need to stop the over management - we've told you so often, your idea of input is instructions, rules and edicts. Composers quite like being told it needs to be warmer, darker, colder, sexier, angrier, happier...... NOT instructions on musical ideas. What makes you think your competence in the musical area is good enough to produce accurate assessment other than your own likes and dislikes?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh, well the harp I didn't feel go for the tone. I know it's less about instrumentization and more about tone and feeling. I just thought that if I asked the composer to use certain instruments, the sounds of those instruments would convey the tone and and feeling I wanted more accurately, rather than end up with sounds I didn't like, which is what happened in the past on other projects.

So I thought if I could be more accurate in the sounds, then I could get the tone I wanted more accurately, in terms of sound. What I could do is show the composer what sound I have in mind, and then ask if that's the best choice or if he has anything better, if that's the way to go?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan - you don't need to communicate "the sound" you have in mind - just the emotion you want it to describe, as paired with the footage. And if you have some temp music that comes close to what you want, all the better. Sharing great ideas is always fine, but otherwise it's best to concentrate on your own rice bowl.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, but if the composer comes up with sounds that I feel do not reflect the emotion or feeling I am going for, should I then suggest to them to maybe pick a different sound, or ask them to pick a different instrument then?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Neither - just better describe the emotion you're after, and make certain the composer understands. She/he will translate this to music.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, it's just when I did that before, I would get sounds that I feel didn't work at all for what I was going for like the harp for example with a composer on a past project. So I thought I needed to be more specific therefore, rather than just say what feel I was after.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

It's OK to comment on instrumentation, but really your job is to focus on relating, in words, the emotional state you seek, and how the music supports the action. If you can't express what you want in words - not in musical instruments or examples - as a non-musician you will never get the results you want. If your composer doesn't get it, either you're not communicating effectively enough or you are both on non-copacetic wavelengths.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, well sometimes it's hard for me to communicate in words. For example if I say I am going for suspense, so there are so many different kinds of tones of suspense, music wise. So I will pick an example track, that I feel conveys that exact feeling of suspense. But if the composer starts putting in different types of sounds that are not in the example track, then I feel a different type of suspens is being conveyed if that makes sense?

It may be better than what I had in mind, but if I feel it's not, then should I ask him to use the sounds that are in that example to get what I was going for more?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

No. "Sounds" alone do not convey emotion or drive action - it's the underlying music, and context, that holds the key. The instrumentation is just the actualization, the delivery person, of what should be there in the music score. If your suggestion for a different instrument does not resonate w/ the composer, it's because the music itself isn't working. This is super basic stuff - for example, a piano reduction of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is much more similar than different from the full orchestration.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

The thing Ryan, is that in the real world, you perhaps give some examples, then you let the composer work to the images. Until you have shot them, edited them and presented them to the composer - they can't compose. You seem to think the visuals are not important and they can produce the music first - it doesn't work like that. We've explained this over and over.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, but if the composer gives me a demonstration of what he has cooked up, and I feel that the sound is not working, should I just ask him to go with the sound that was in the example track instead, or should I ask him to keep trying with different sounds instead then? I feel that certain sounds could create a different emotion or feel, compared to other sounds, but that is how my brain interprets the feelings.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan sounds like you're obsessing over your subjective ideas that aren't rooted in an expertise. A competent composer can use most any instrument to pull it off. A movie is for other people who aren't going to share your personal preferences in music, so as long as the music supports the mood of the scene that's all that matters. So you might like bass flute or associate that instrument with a certain mood but any other person probably won't share your opinions, that's why it's waste of time to micro manage such details. Maybe you should ask other people to listen to the track and describe the mood.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

How do you know without the images? You have the cart before the horse. You are deciding the music based on if you like it, like hearing a song on the radio. There is no context. Remember that cowboy film with the kind of whistling shrieking sound the great and grew. It fits the movie, but if you heard it without the images, we'd all hate it. Some of the music in Blade Runner without the pictures is atonal and horrid, but with the edit, it works perfectly.

The question of course is if your brain functions the same as the audience's. You are producing the music for their mood and emotional needs, not yours.

In one of the other topics somebody mentioned 2001. The scene in that movie where Dave in the pod is travelling has the weirdest images and a totally weird soundtrack. If that soundtrack had been played without the images, everyone would have hated it.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

But if anyone instrument can pull off an emotion though, that how come in some movies it sounds much better than others when they use different instruments then?

Oh yes I will get back on the project when it's finished shooting, but still have a preliminary plan going in. But I was also advised before to bring the composer early on in pre-production. Should I not then and only hire one in post?

But when you say I am doing it for the emotional needs of me and not the audience, wouldn't what I want, reflect what the audience wants since if I like it in a movie, than others should as well? Shouldn't I use my own judgment as to what I like as a basis?