Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh well I thought it was normal for the director to give the composer temp tracks, of what they want the music to sound like, and go over what is it about the temp tracks that they like for the composer, thus in thi case the low flute sound.

Do directors not do that with a composer?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Yes and no, but they don't go into the detail you do, it's more about mood and various other things. The composer doesn't really need to have a detailed breakdown on the instruments it's more about what you're trying to emotionally convey at any point in the story and if the music can assist in doing this.

Also, underline anything that isn't coming across visually, action or performance wise.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You had that idea about pan pipes, and clearly that's where the flute idea cam from - but the composer needs the idea - in fact giving them a clip and saying you like the effect at say 3:01 is more useful than doing research into what it is, or probably isn't. What concerns me is that your composer seems so 'uncomposer-ish'

Remember that if you are unable to pay the real rate for the job, they will need to feel free to do what they do best, and you sound very difficult to work for? You want them to have a free hand but must incorporate all those disparate instruments - orchestra, synth, electric guitar and now unusual instruments like bass flutes. The fact that they don't appear in the popular mainstream packages show you how unusual they are? Musicians, actors, singers dancers, lighting designers and composers are all used to working to vague and unprofessionally explained briefs - they hate people muscling in on their world with detailed suggestions as most times it's clear it won't work, or worse, be impossible to dovetail in with the rest.

I remember having to not laugh when a Theatre Director was talking to internationally famous Lighting Designer Patrick Woodroffe. He nodded a lot, appeared to be listening, and despite all the clever technical talk, he just said "So you'd like it to be more Pink?". Pink wasn't a colour, it was a mood. The Director was so pleased he got it. Yes! That's it. The end product was more blue, more purple and a bit of yellow. No Pink. Director was happy.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay thanks. But are the sounds I want for the mood and the score, really so unsual, since I have heard those sounds in other movies? And yes, I would have to order library music samples of the instruments from other packages for it the composer, butI don't mind. But there movie soundtracks where the composers have no problem having certain instruments that are not the most mainstream, so I thought this was normal, when it comes to other movies. I mean if other movies have a low bass type flute in, why is that a complication to want to do as well?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Ryan - music is NOT sound effects. I can't do anything with a client who provides sound effects. Musicians do NOT use sound effects, they use sound samples that they can play - quietly, loudly, rhythmically dis-rhythmically, layered, isolated, detuned, blended, stretched and shrunk. Do you ever look at the suggestions I post. Look at British Drama Toolkit from Spitfire. Watch the video, watch how they create sounds you hear on TV and film and how those sounds are created. You are thinking sound effects all the time, and they are nothing to do with composition. For goodness sake - if you have a composer, and like certain types of sound, let the poor man work with musical tools.

Watch the clips of how Hans Zimmer composes, or Vangelis, or Morricone or even John Williams and others - they use music, not an off the shelf clip of a flute going woooooof.

You've got totally and utterly the wrong impression of what composition is all about. Composers sit with a clip maybe, or often just the written paperwork saying what happens and they get musical ideas, like an artists sketch pad.

if you gave me a sound effect, I could work with it and perhaps treat it, or probably re-sample it, but why would I need to - I'd just do what I did with that flute - play it's lowest note, discover I needed to go lower and make it happen. If I played you a low note from a bass flute, could you tell it wasn't an alto flute (much more likely to be what a flautist actually has) and sometimes a bassoon can sound like a low flute. In fact, sometimes low woodwinds are almost impossible to tell apart. I have never, in over 40 years of playing instruments ever held, or even seen a bass flute. I've heard them on recordings and seen them on video, but I've never seen a bass saxophone either. Bass clarinets I've seen, but never played - I did own a baritone sax, but it's value was so high, and usage so low, I took the money!

I'm sorry Ryan, but you really don't understand the music side of this business at all. If your composer is decent, and frankly I am wonderings now, this is all very personal to him. I cannot tell him what equipment and sample instruments (not effects) he should have because his needs will be different to mine, but you don't trust him, and as he's not already exploded or walked away, I'm left believing he's musically not up to this either if he has not said exactly what I have said to you in person. I know some very, very talented people in this field - and they simply would not work with you, as you're doing everything very, very strangely.

I've read over and over the topic you and Brian are doing about the script, and it's way out of my comfort area now, but it looks very much like this one - you rejecting everything and trying to justify your strange choices. Some people can not do every role they want to, no matter how hard they try!

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh sorry I don't mean to make it seem like I am rejecting advice. It's just if I am advised to something I feel I need to know more about it, with details, otherwise I don't know why I am taking that piece of advise, or what I am doing with it exactly. That's all. I don't mean to make it sound like I am rejecting advice.

I know music is not sound effects, but I thought we were talking about more than just sound effects, and actual music I want, aren't we? And yes you are right, I cannot tell the difference between certain instruments. But I know that I want a low flute like sound and that that sound is made by a flute for sure. So wouldn't that be good for a composer to go off of? I don't understand the musical side of it, but I know what I want the music to sound like. But if I don't work with the composer on it, then it likely not sound like how I want, will it?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You do need to trust your composer, otherwise you'll just end of with another example of your copy and paste approach to film making.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, for sure. It's just some of the instruments seem to difficult to make sound natural if using samples, and wondered if anything else can be done, audio wise, or anything.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Isn't this your composer's job rather than the directors?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Yeah I just wanted other opinions on what the limitations are and wondering if it was possible with just other samples perhaps? For the flute example, all I did was tell the composer I want a low bass flute type sound, played in a similar way like in the temp track I showed him. Was that really abnormal of me to do that, and is it really going to be that hard for a composer to do? I thought saying that was not asking too much?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You can. but you seem to be working with your own limitations, rather than allowing the composer to come up with more than you can imagine, That's the job of the director to guide, then let your creative people off to see what they come up with.

The composer should be able to find samples or get a musician to play customised samples.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh sure the composer could come up with more than I can imagine that would be great! I was just wanting to point him in a direction I was going for, so he doesn't do something that is different than what I was looking for. But if he exceeds what I imagined, that's great.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You're over cooking this, the composer can hear what's required from your temp tracks. Telling them what's in just one of your messages here should do the job.

Of course, given all this may be a year or more in the future, it's best not to get too locked in, ideas can change.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay I thought that temp tracks would convey what I want better than I could explain it.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

They will, but all you need to convey that you feel that such and such sounds good,

BTW There is music other than film music around.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, what do you mean there is music other than film music around? Are you saying I shouldn't use temp tracks from movies always?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

So many movies use music from other sources.

You clearly still do not understand sampling. If the RESULT doesn’t sound real, that’s because the sample was bad, or more likely inappropriate . I just counted how many string samples are in just one of the folders in just one of my individual sample packages over 3000! Each one is a slightly different single note.

You seem to still be thinking effects. This is not a musical sample, which is what you need.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Why do you seem to make illogical assumptions on what you're being told?

No, just that there's other music around, some of which is the inspiration for film music composers. Penderecki is one such, a classical composer, his music has been used in soundtracks.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

In a way, music for visual thinks has been composed for hundreds of years. Fireworks, for example - just like today. Clients brief - we're having a huge firework display, make the people cheer up and feel a bit better, so can you write some music that goes well with the display?

Or maybe somebody wanted to tell the story of a fairytale voyage across calm seas, but then have a storm and terrible calamities? Or maybe a bloody battle, but a proud one - or stories about fairy or swans dying?

It's the same thing - Composer thinks - hmmm let's have a big explosion, how can I do that?

Personally I absolutely hate the idea of a composer being presented with somebodies favourite music as a suggestion. I avoid musical cliches whenever I can.

Ryan - tell me what you learned from watching Guy Michelmore compose? Did you understand how it evolved - and most importantly did you spot any musical cliches?

You also need to sometimes experiment and use sounds out of context. I remember back in the 70s and 80s people who took classical tracks and used synths instead - it was popular for a short time then died out, so that's what I've been trying - I'm not sure if it works, to be honest. Is it more sci-fi or perhaps underwater? I can't decide if I like it or not - it's certainly not movie cliche, but I'm not sure it holds up. The original is destroyed in a way by the treatment and the mangling of bits of it - but I figured the constant arpeggios the piano plays were sort of robotic - so here's my question,

A good direction to expand on, or forget totally and move on.
https://youtu.be/uBF4bJo-d1c?list=OL...aZsHtO2QZ60JcA

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

But effects will not work for everything though, and I still need musical samples for a lot of the music, won't I?

Oh well I am not sure if I want to use a classical composer on the soundtrack. It depends the music of course. But I would still have to get the composer to re-compose it though, in order for it to not be copywritten, right?

Okay thanks, I watch Guy Michelmore... I listened to your music example there. What am I looking for specifically? When it comes to Guy Michelmores videos, does he do any on cliches specifically? I am starting off his videos now... I didn't think I was telling my composer to do a cliche though, but rather just point him in the direction I wanted.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Some of the music you're using as temp tracks are written by such composers, film music being one of the areas that composers from a classical background work. Jerry Goldsmith has film pieces inspired by Penderecki.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay. Sure I am open to it, if I like the music, but I would be worried if it would come off as cliched, or unoriginal, if i use someone else's music, that's already out there.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

there's a lot of music that an audience will be unaware of.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

That's true. And I am open to using it, depending on what it is, and if it works. However, it was said before that I should get my compose to do something more original, rather than write something inspired by temp tracks. So if I ask the composer to recompose symphonies exactly, then wouldn't that be asking him to something even more unoriginal of him then?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Your temp track selection seemed to be very well known, so I'm not sure that argument hold up. The composer will come up with something that isn't precisely the same as the temp tracks. The main problem is usually the director and others failing for the temp tracks, rather than the composed tracks.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, what do you mean the director fails for the temp tracks exactly?

But also, if I ask the composer to recompose a piece of music, wouldn't they rather just compose something of their own creation even if it's inspired by music I wanted to be inspired by? I thought the argument is, is that recomposing a piece of music exactly, is worse than being inspired by one, than doing something somewhat similar but different. If a person recognizes a piece of classical music, they will immediately recognize it as that and say something like "Hey that's Mozart!", etc. But you don't often hear people say "Hey that kind of sounds like it could have been inspired by The Replacement Killers", for example?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

he meant “FALLING for the temp track”. It was a typo. in other words director falls in love with temp music theyve been listening to repeatedly for months edited into a certain scene and then when they hear the composed music they dont like it cause theyre used to the temp track

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3)
The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Yes it's "fall".

Most people won't recognize Penderecki or the other classical composers you're likely to use on a thriller. Although, one of the funders on a short I made did recognize Penderecki, but she came from an arts background.

BTW She asked for a video of the film with the temp tracks, rather than the final composed music, so it's not just the director who falls for the temp music.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay thanks. I haven been working lately so I haven't watched his videos yet since I just got the message about the videos from you this morning, in the earlier post but I will watch it. Thanks. Also, when you say that the flute is just texture, is that a bad thing of the flute is texture? I thought that was okay.

Also, I could just have the composer do it all without giving him any examples, of what I was thinking, but what if what he comes up with is too different than what I was envisioning? He could surprise and I would like it, but what if I did not, and it was too different for me? Wouldn't it save time to give him some examples, to give him an idea of what I was thinking?

Classical type music can work for some parts, but not for all scenes I don't think. I would have to listen and see what's out there more, since most classical I know of, may not be what I was envisioning.

And I don't want to have music in the movie I don't feel it fits the scene. I wouldn't pick music just because I like it only. in fact, I don't even like the harmonica or saxophone really, I just picked them because I thought they would fit the particular context of the movie.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

How good do you think your judgement actually is, without prompting? A good thing we did with students was give them a movie but no soundtrack, and get them to do a music sketch of what they felt the music should be like. It was NEVER like the original. I'm not sure why you already have these ideas before you even shoot? Surely the first time music even gets considered is when you see the rushes for the first time and see what it looks like? I can't write music for something I have not seen. The pace, the feel, the circumstances and the timing would be guesswork, and some advance compositions would just be thrown away. Your ideas for low breathy sounds might work perfectly - but they might not, and you cannot tell till you see the images. I bet Morricone didn't write a note till he saw those big vistas and the empty frames with the space and the actors doing nothing. If those scenes had busy dialogue, then they would have been different. Music supports the edit.

The clip to Guy shows how strange rhythmic bangs and thuds, which seem so out of place with the footage, evolve into something huge - he didn't start with anything but a new sample package - so he used all sorts of sounds - and there's a very useful bit of chat about copyright. This is where he does a live stream of him working, complete with questions and rambling!

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

I think my judgment of what the music should be is pretty good. When you say without prompting, is prompting bad? It's just with covid now, I thought I would get some other things done for the project while I wait, and felt I could feel the scenes better even, with directing them, if I had rough drafts of what the music would be at this point as well.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

You can have thoughts about the music, you can use music to help you visualize the film when writing the script, but don't get too close to it, otherwise you'll end up falling for the temp tracks.

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

What I mean Ryan is that sometimes your thought processes are very, very strange. I was looking at your past decisions and often you change your mind, or you are fixed and based on people's comments you move the goalposts. You get prompted frequently and so many things people tell you, you should have already considered. You then ask if it's bad? you do this questioning so often, it's predictable. You have the most odd way of working. You plan and plan and plan, and now your production phase has been put on hold, you've now gone into planning overdrive.

We try so hard to help, advise and guide and you totally ignore so much of it and come back with the usual "I've been told ...." by somebody with the opposite viewpoint that supports your viewpoint. It would be so easy to just say - yes Ryan, you're absolutely right, and let you wreck the few good ideas you have.

This topic started out with you not understanding how to make instruments sound natural - and you have refused and avoided explaining how you are creating your music. You talk about the samples being poor, but musically, I've tried to explain musicians do not work with single samples, but huge packages of sounds. You won't reveal any details of how the composer works, so how on earth can you guide him if you don't understand what he does?

You have wasted so much energy on one tiny aspect of the music. Chances are your composer will listen to it, and find something better.

I'm beginning to feel that there simply is no point trying to help you because you talk but never listen - why ask questions if all you really want is "great idea Ryan, go for it, you're 100% right - samples are terrible, but your orchestra you have booked will be fine."

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was not taking advice. I do take in and consider all the advice on here, and a lot of it has been very helpfull. I am really appreciating of it. Thank you. I'm apologize for giving the wrong impression.

I don't mean for my thought process to be strange.

And I know that musicians work with huge packages of sound, but what are you trying to say, when you say that? Are you saying that we haven't picked enough instrument samples? Or are you saying he should have more to pick from?

As for details on how the composer works... Well I don't have a DAW for music but he does. He asks me for what kind of music I am going for and if I have any examples, and what kind of tone overall I am going for so far. Is there anything else I can answer about the composer's way of working specifically, that I haven't thought of perhaps?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

We are slowly getting there. You were asked for things you thought good, you provided them. That’s good. Now your job is to forget music for now.

Does guy in his videos even use the word samples? I don’t think he does when describing sounds. I’ve got things that just have descriptive names. Swarms, ethereal, world, etc etc. Does your composer need more? Yes. Always a growing collection because you always need more. The difficulty is in remembering where certain sound are!

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, why is the difficulty remembering where certain sound are?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Because writing down wonderful things you discover never works. When I want say, the sound of space, I go to absynth, ethereal world and a few others but there are thousands of sounds to audition. My best purchase was a kontakt S61 keyboard that has a built in browser and it stores a tiny bit of each sound you can listen to quickly. If you dial up program 445 it might take ten seconds to load in thousands of samples and the firs5 keyboard press says no, you you try 446 an d so on.the keyboard lets you pick an instrument group then a style then presents a list of every sound it thinks matches, and then you can quickly turn a knob and hear them one by one, and reject them so fast. If you search for flute, then evolving, then low, you might get one of the sounds you would like. Most of these sounds you will never even know you have. I’m now even starting my search at z and working back, because often I find a nice one beginning with b and never hear the others.

I’ve just bought a Ronin S, and searching for videos I came across a guy called Neil Fisher who makes really good videos and he lives in ............ Saskatoon!

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

Oh okay, Neil Fisher sounds really familiar, and I think I worked with him before on someone else's project. Thanks!

How do you remember where certain sounds are if writing them down doesn't work? When you say does the guy in the video even use word samples, what do you mean by 'word samples', in this case?

Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?
 

If you have maybe 4 thousand instruments to choose from, writing things down is impossible, hence why I love the auditioning system. I could write down the names but finding the right sample is all about auditioning. Some of the VSTi instruments I have have page after page of sounds - maybe 8 or 9 hundred in total. Most are also editable - so you spend far too long looking and listening. On the word samples question, what I meant is that he does not use the word 'samples' - we talk about sounds, so if he needs strings he goes to violas - but he probably has maybe 40 good viola sounds to choose from, so will have favourites. My favourites change frequently. I bought the Abbey Rd package recently - I think three hundred pounds, and it's full of orchestral and precision sounds recorded in the famous Abbey Rd studios, but I think I like the Albion package better for what I do. What I know for certain is that I probably have the sound somewhere, finding it is crazily difficult. Every day, it seems, new package appear, and some offer very tempting offers from a few pounds to hundreds and if one turns up just when you are struggling for a sound, your credit card takes a hit. Sometimes you can spend hundreds to get one sound if it's important.