Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Would be great to hear suggestions for getting most bang-for-buck in a shotgun mic for use in independent filmmaking. In past I've had access to mics that I can't afford to own like the Schoeps CMC 6 U/MK 21, but am looking to add something to the kit bag that can give me pro quality without having to deal with the hassle of borrowing/renting.

Thanks in advance!

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

I'd be looking at the whole chain from mic to recording. A less expensive mic and a better recorder might make all the difference. And asking if you need things like Timecode. Some of the cameras have a high noise floor and may even make a "High-end" mic sound bad. Also things like limiters and low end cut can save takes. An example might be "I have $1000", what's best mic I can get for my DSLR? Some would say get a Sennheiser MKH-416 for $999. I would say, you would be better off with a Zoom F4 or Sound Device Mix-Pre 3 and a RODE NTG-4. It all boils down to the end deliverable. Here are some suggestions that might help, maybe others can chime in with more options:

Beginner:
Azden SGM250
Marantz Pro has a new line worth looking at Marantz Professional - Professional Playback & Recording
RODE Videomic / Videomic Pro (Can use with XLR via VXLR product)
Shure VP83 Lenshopper

Medium:
RODE NTG-1,2 or NTG-4+
Sennheiser MKE600
Audio Technica AT875R

Medium - High:
Aputure Deity
RODE NTG-3
Sennheiser MKH-416
Audio Technica 4073

High:

Sanken CS-3e
Sennheiser 8060
DPA 4017c
Schoeps miniCMIT
Schoeps CMIT 5U

There are ton of good videos on YouTube to hear the samples. Curtis Judd does a pretty good job https://www.youtube.com/user/curtisjudd

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Thanks for these, much appreciated. Yeah, I'm recording into a Tascam DR-40 for now. Already have a RODE VideoMic Pro but consider it a toy, merely useful for syncing on-camera audio with the field recorder. After doing some looking around and watching/listening to some YouTube comparison tests of the RODEs and Sennheisers I'm thinking I may be have to bite the bullet and drop the $2K+ on a Schoeps CMC641 and a Rycote blimp.

Will be a stretch, but I think maybe I've gotten too spoiled to deal with the compromises involved in using lesser mics. We all obsess about video quality here, but if the audio is lacking you may as well call in the dogs and piss on the fire, as they say.

Thanks again!

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

$1600 mic to feed a $150 recorder?!

What is being used to capture the video?
What is the recording environment? Studio or field?
What is the ultimate end product and how will it be viewed and heard?
How good does the audio have to be? The expectation for the 6 o-clock news is not the same as for an opera aria.

If you bought a decent $200 mic, what benefit could you get out of the remaining $1400.
Your money, your budget, your product

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

My go to budget mic is the AT875r with a rode PG2 grip and WS6 softie.

I have done full drama shoots on that one mic and have five of them.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

We’ve all been here. Welcome to the World of Micing-up, where, if you look closely behind each and every new arrival through the Gates of Audio Nirvana you can just make Out discarded ditched kit, lining the route to “Better”.

Damn straight!

Oh yes..... A great looking video can be all but sheeeet, if the Audio is compromised. However, a dodgy looking piece of Video LOOKS unbeatable with clear and authentic AUDIO. Am I right or am I right???

Methinks you’re needing permissions to trade up? Don’t think twice, just do it. My first pro mic was a Senni 66 with the K9. I needed it to fall in with my first Boss. It felt like an unnecessary and overly ridiculous, obscene amount of money. Still got and use it. I’ve added more 66s and a loooong tube for some natural sounds. They’ve always been “hotish” but this type of clarity in post can be an advantage.

Spend the money on what you want to get. Does that SOUND good?

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

I love my Schoepes and wouldn't be without it. I bought a very reasonable priced ($700) one in the T power variety and then had it modded to 48 volt phantom power. The mic is over twenty years old and sounds great. Total cost was under $900. Pete Verrando does the mod. He can also do Sennheiser 416s and 816s.
Bernie

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

I’m with you. I try not to judge but I’m frequently baffled by the posts I read here.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

What Steven is looking for is a good “shotgun” mic to add to his mic quiver. Initially I had the same questions Don had but after reading post #3 where Steven plans to add a Rycote blimp (Zeppelin) that kinda indicates outdoor work. Zeppelins aren’t a cheap addition because of unit, special conbox cable, the Windjammer, and lets not forget the K-Tek carbon fiber boom pole, stand, sandbags, boompole holder adapter, Pearstone neoprene boompole case, Zeppelin gear case (I repurposed my old carry-on bag), ….. It all adds up. Whew!

Sending the signal to a Tascam DR-40 almost guaranteed beat whatever the cam has for audio capture (since they don’t even publish their data) so that’s a plus. Building a kit from scratch isn’t easy and for someone without deep pockets it’s definitely a piecemeal situation and, consequently, at least speaking for myself, every purchase is a compromise. Got a lot more tied up in audio than cameras. PZM mic anyone? It never ends.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Lol. Oh brother. Come on now, let's not get too pretentious about this. No one likes a snob. The DR-40 captures 96kHz/24-bit and is damned good. The reason it only costs $150 is because sound is a TRIVIAL data-type to store and push around in 2018, totally lightweight with modern computer technology.

Now before you hop on your pre-amp soapbox, yes, I've used SoundDevices units (the 422) in the past and something like that would definitely be better paired with a CMC641, but the DR-40 will not much diminish the great sound I'm getting off the Schoeps until such time as I have $4K lying around for a SoundDevices unit.

Really funny how some criticized me here for spending too much, others for spending too little. Make up your f*cking mind!

As far as my intended uses, mix of indoor and outdoor, and I figure I can get away with a boom mic outdoors for now if I don't try to capture any usable dialog too far from my subjects. I'll eventually add a proper shotgun, and found some of the suggestions above very helpful.

Please, never assume people are ignorant about this sort of stuff based on a few lines written in haste on a chat board.

For anyone tempted to believe horseshit from snobs about the DR-40 being somehow this massive compromise:

http://www.studiodaily.com/2013/11/r...io-recorder-2/

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

I think you're taking the right approach. A great mic is a great mic and as you say won't be diminished much by the DR-40s preamps. And I have to say I recorded some concerts with a DR-40 with its internal mics and was blown away by how good it sounded. I was at the mix position and got the recorder up on a stand and it was amazing how well it did. Granted its much different than plugging a mic into it and recording dialogue but it does speak to the quality of the design. There's a plug on mic booster by Triton Audio that can boost the output of the mic if the gain staging becomes a problem.
I've used the CMC641 many times out doors and with proper wind protection it does really well. With the lack of reflections and other acoustic factors you can still get good sound at a reasonable distance. Look at the Cinela products for wind protection for the CMC641. They just came out with a new version of their ball gag called Leo. You can add fur to it for the outdoors. Bumblebee also has a nice slip on windscreen with two levels of fur. I'm using it with my CMC641 and the Rycote Lyra suspension. I have the Cinela Piano for my CMIT5u.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

If you're willing to go used and T power you can get in for well under 2 grand. Check my other post about getting a T power CMC641 modded.
BB

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Encouraging to hear about your success with the CMC641 out of doors! Will definitely test pushing it and see what I can get away with. Had already ordered the Rycote Windshield Kit 2 before these Cinela suggestions came in, will look at maybe returning the Rycote. Thanks for the suggestions!

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Glad to help. Let us know what your findings are.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

The operative phrase in the original post is "best value" and that means different things to different people6

Near perfect is the enemy of good enough and accounts for maybe 90% of the ultimate cost of things. The audio chain is only as good as the weakest link. And infrequent use may be best served by rental, especially if operating as a business. Thoughts to bear in mind if on a limited budget.

One can drive to work in an '95 Ford, a SmartCar, a BMW or ride in a limo. All four can get one there. The question is how one wants to go, cost, requirement to arrive safely at the end of the trip, and is one trying to send a message to others or reaffirm something to one's self.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

"The operative phrase in the original post is "best value" and that means different things to different people"

Fair enough, though I think my "bang-for-buck" intent was fairly well understood. In a sense I was fishing for a mic I'd maybe never heard of that was taking the world by storm. Alas, no such beast appears to have been introduced to the market. As ever, you get what you pay for. And I just didn't want to pay to own a mic I wasn't excited to use.

As far as renting, sure, I've done that for my last several productions. Typically that was the Sennheiser 416, which I found serviceable but vaguely underwhelming, unlike the stuff I had shot with the CMC641, which sounded like manna from heaven.

In a sense, I'm tired of renting, and the only kit I'm missing at this point that would allow me the option not have to deal with the hassle and expense of rental pickup and return are microphones and wind protection gear. Hence my original post.

In any case, I'm happy with my CMC641 decision. One day I'll pick up a good shotgun to go along with it. When I do, the above list by Guy Cochran is fairly awesome, and I'll be using it. Cheers!

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

I did not find Pete's post snarky at all. If "you know about these things" then you would understand his comment. IMHO Tascam, Zoom et all; are capable of recording quality audio to a point. That point is usually around 5 on their pre amp knob. Anything above that introduces noise and defeats the purpose of a high end mic. When you boom you often need pre amps to do their job at higher than average settings. That is what you get when you pay for Sound Devices gear. Your CMC641 is going to sound great....under average conditions. Above average it will suck, just like any other mic going throug amature pre amps.

There is nothing to make up my f***ing mind about. It has been a long time since I heard someone say that on this board.

Steve

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Maybe it’s just me but I find it annoying when people ask for purchasing advice when they have already made up their mind and dismiss out of hand any advice given.

I’m trying to keep my comments as polite as I can and resisting the urge engage someone when they become emotional and arguementative.

I mean look if you want a Schoeps great, they are the Cadillac of mics, no one can dispute their quality but to try to argue the most expensive mic on the market to be a “value” mic...

Like Don said you’re are only as strong as your weakest link. I don’t think any audio pro would dispute the suggestion that you should use Sound Devices or equivalent with such a mic. Running around outdoors with a Schoeps in a blimp on an indie project seems over kill. That’s a delicate mic used for controlled settings like recording studios or classical orchestra.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Question for Steven, Pete, or whomever:
Back on the previous page Bernie said
TritonAudio has a number of XLR accessories for helping with the signal level, would something like this be helpful with the recorder (in this case the Tascam) if the run was to long, or not enough audio volume?
FetHead - TRITONAUDIO

It appears like it would, (according to their FAQs) but then, if so, the next question would be "How much noise or distortion would be introduced as a result?" Something worth considering?

I've got the Tascam DR-44WL but haven't used it on any long runs. (As an aside, also haven't controlled it with a Knob - only use it with the Tascam "DR Control" iPhone app. Really cool by the way)

If the audio source isn't loud enough that probably isn't the time to walk up the mic and attach a booster to the cable (unless there can be a Take 2").

Edit: Dang it, forgot to thank Bernie for mentioning TritonAudio. Thanks Bernie!

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

A quality mixer is more versatile but the fet head is a nice tool that can solve a specific problem. Mainly you can upgrade the preamp without replacing your existing recorder such as a H4N or similar recorder.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Oy vey. Yeah, any mic I purchased would have this issue (such as it is), as I don't have the budget for a Sound Devices at the moment and didn't want to sink my mic budget into a Zoom just to get marginally better preamps. The Triton adaptor is something I'm looking at as well, though people bagging on the DR-40 are underestimating the sound that can be gotten out of that thing. The preamps are decent and at 24bit/96Khz it provides enough dynamic range to offset in post essentially any issues with gain.

Also, a lot of this stuff I believe to be pure audiophile baloney. The noise floor that would be raised by pushing the gain past 50 percent will be more than buried by the room tone I'd typically be using (indoor or out) for any scenes I shoot And if you honestly think the DR-40 is going to suddenly turn a CMC641 into an NTG2 once I hit 51 on the gain, please, get serious: you're kidding yourself.

As far as the other stuff, I mean, grow up. How long have you been on the Internet? You can handle a bleeped out "f*cking" can't you? I thanked people who were helpful, found highly useful the list of shotguns posted early on as well as suggestions for blimps and preamp adaptors and said so. It was only when a handful of jackals started in with useless nitpicking and patronizing nonsense that I decided to push back.

So can we move on now, or are you absolutely determined to waste more of your time and mine? My time is worth something, is yours?

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Maybe it's me, but I find it annoying when people do not take the time to read the thread before attacking others. I asked for suggestions, got some good ones, didn't find anything I liked, went in a different direction. All addressed in this thread, which I will no longer be responding to.

Almost all quality mics are delicate, it's the nature of the beast. The only kind of mic you might feel okay abusing would be something like an SM58. And the CMC641 has been used on so many film productions –indie, studio, what have you– it's not even funny. So your contention about where it's only appropriate to use is basically a complete lie.

In any case—and here I'm talking to the kind people who responded helpfully to this post and past the assholes that have descended on this thread to do what they do—below find a useful link. Assholes are everywhere in American life now, and they are determined to make you one of them via their highly contagious affliction. The below article from September of 2017 on "peak asshole" goes into detail about how to spot them, and strategies for dealing with them. Good luck!

This Professor Has a Theory on Why 2017 Is Filled With Jerks

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

You're welcome! I bought two of them of the phantom variety so I can use them with both of my Schopes. I haven't experimented with them much yet but they do definitely give a good boost to the signal and don't add much noise. My Zaxcom has great preamps and I can open the trim up all the way and the fader most of the way without introducing much hiss at all. So I would use these if I had some very soft spoken folks which isn't often. They're the size of a connector so you would put it in line between the cable out of the boom and the recorder.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

As I am sure many here are fully aware, but in case anyone wasn't:

In other words, FetHeads can only be used with mics which don't require phantom power – dynamics, passive ribbons and condensers which run on internal batteries – which would rule out some or many of the most commonly used shotguns.

Stay cool guys and peace to all.
l

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

They also make a version for condenser mics that pass phantom power. I just bought two of them and used them on both of my Schoeps.
http://tritonaudio.com/fethead-phantom.html

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Clearly you are more fully aware than I was! :-)

Apologies, and thanks for that information. A bit of Googling shows me that I was not the only one unaware of the Phantom version. Perhaps it needs advertised a bit more effectively since it’s apparently been on the go for at least 6 years.

Every day’s a school day...

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Agreed, everything should be in relative ish balance to each other.

No point buying a Schopes to feed into the lowest of low grade recorders, as that budget should have instead been more evenly spread around.

I've done a brief overview of low budget recorders:

Which Sound Recorder to buy? A guide to various indie priced sound recorders in 2017 – David Peterson


For shotguns, a few quick mentions:
Ultra low budget: secondhand Audio-Technica AT875R
Low budget: Aputure Deity
Mid range: NTG3 / 416
High end: Sanken CS3e
(heaps more options though than just these! CS3e for instance is just the one I personally use)

You also want a 2nd mic to use indoors rather than a shotgun, Curtis Judd has a nice little video on a few options to consider:


Personally, I'm using an AKG:

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

This is a very key point, too many people forget about opportunity cost:


Basically, what are you giving up when you make one choice over another? As none of us have unlimited money or unlimited time! Thus evening is a compromise between different options.

By buying a Schoeps, maybe you're giving up buying an extra channel of wireless, or some essential accessories? Or maybe even there is some non-audio gear you need, such as extra lighting gear.

Thus how much are you gaining by buying a Schoeps vs how much are you missing out?

Law Of Diminishing Marginal Utility is worthwhile keeping in mind as well (can you tell I'm an economics nerd? Ha!):


Same.....

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

It is possible to BOTH spend too much and too little!

Too much in one area, and too little in another area.

It is not just about how far away you are.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

Very well put.

This also.

Lately Tascam's products have become pretty good (such as Tascam DR70D and Tascam DR680mk2) and Zoom's even very good (Zoom F8 and Zoom F4), the gap between them (especially F4/F8) and the higher end stuff is narrowing.

I feel a mirror would be appropriate here....

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

These low end recorders generally sound fine under optimal conditions. Where they fall apart is pro features, usability and how they handle non optimal conditions mainly limiters and preamps. Anyone who has real world experience will know this. They’re probably fine for podcast or low end work where budget is an issue. Obviously a step up from camera audio.

Re: Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film
 

The pre amps of the Zoom F4/F8 are just excellent, you'll have to be doing very high end or obscure niche work to have complaints about them. (and you shouldn't ever drive limiters hard, and otherwise you could just run a safety track)

Even the lowly cheap Tascam DR60Dmk2 will have better pre amps (they're better than what is in the Zoom H5 / H6) than any one needs for low budget work without a professional sound recordist.