Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Here’s another Audio gig question.

This Friday there will be a girl’s choir performance in a church and I’m looking for suggestions on how to record the audio.

The gear available include Sennheiser ME64, ME66 (but only one K6 capsule so it is one mic or the other), AKG C414 XLS (gold with the “bump”), AKG C414 XLII. The recorder is a Tascam DR-44WL (stereo).

There are plenty of stands and cables. This will be a multicam shoot with the potential for up to four cams but we’ll probably only use a max of two and maybe three. Currently thinking of a wide (probably a wide angle but maybe at the rear), one for soloists, and one for the harpist.

The church interior is tall, somewhat narrow, but quite long compared to the width, with openings on each side. I’ve never been there so I don’t know the dimensions.

So, one more thing, this is not a BBC documentary and not looking for the ultimate audio job but want to get something better than in the past which was just using a H4n by itself.

Would like to have the mic(s) and stands as incognito as possible. We can probably put a mic about 10 feet in front of the choir as this was done once before, but I don’t know how high (I know it’s nice to have it high).

So the big question is, what do the audio guru’s think?
Mic choice(s)?
Options?
Mic the harpist or soloists separately (I think the soloist(s) might be backed up a bit by the choir)?
Concerns?

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Some thoughts: Try black gaffers tape on silver colored mic stands to make them stand out a bit less.

The C414s in cardioid or wide cardioid setting are probably the better mic for the choir. Try beg, borrow, etc. an additional mic for the soloists, otherwise have them close to one of the C414

Use the ME64 for the harp.

Try setups at a rehearsal if you can to see what gives the better results. Record each mic to a separate channel (the DR-44WL has 4) so you can optimize the mix in post.

http://www.shure.com/publications/au...of-worship.pdf
will provide a lot of useful information.

Other guides are also available at
Publications | Shure Americas

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Since the only 'matched set' you have are on the Tascam recorder, I would use them as the main (anchor) 'stereo field' mics and use the rest for sections (if there are any) and spot mics on the soloists. Of course with out seeing or hearing the choir, it's a generalization. Naturally you want to record all to separate tracks and you'll want a minimum of six.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Agreed with Rick to use the Tascam as your main pair because it's internal mics are the only arguably matched ones you have. Since it is XY, the stereo image won't be terrific, but it will be solid and stable. Your description of the church suggests a potentially significant amount of natural reverb, and (if that is correct) you'll have an easier time controlling it with the Tascam's SDC's. The 414's, like other LDC's, have off-axis coloration, and if you have a lot of echoes in that church, I think the Tascam would do a better job at eliminating any such coloration.

I've used a matched pair of 414s on small vocal ensembles to good effect, but not on larger choirs.

A good starting point is to place the Tascam on a stand within a few feet behind the conductor, farther back if you're not picking up enough of the girls on either extreme side of the choir. Somewhere 10-13 feet high is a good starting point; I try to select a height that makes each row of choristers equidistant from the main pair. If the position results in too dry a sound, first raise the mics, don't move them back.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Been out all day and just got in. Thanks for the quick reply, Don:
Good comment. Fortunately, they're already black.

These are the newer mics and they have five setting options from omni to hypercardioid and figure eight. Unfortunately, there aren't any other options for picking up another (good) mic. I do have an Electro-Voice E-V RE50B "interview" mic but didn't think that would have an application in this event.
One concern I have is with the way the soloist(s) come down front and how this will make it really difficult and I'll be reading the other posts for suggestions.

The recorder has four channels alright but only two XLR inputs and I've been using two of the recorder's four tracks for safety tracks.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Lots of options to consider. If there is a rehearsal, try be there to run some test to see what works best for you, recognizing it will not have any audience noise/effects.

Some issues from the photo:

The ensemble is spread out in a line over a wide area. Makes balanced pickup by a single point mic difficult due to varing distance from the singers. An arc would be a better arrangement to keep all voices about the same distance from the mic.

The conductor appears to be almost back to the first row of pews. A mic placed behind him may pick up more audience noise than you want. Also, the further the mic is from the direct sound source (vocalists) the greater the impact of venue reverb, and the conductor is a good distance from the singers.

The two mics in the $199 DR-44 may, or may not, be better matched than the $950 C414s whose published curves appear to be within 2 dB. Be sure to evaluate that in your tests.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Rick -
My first reaction is that the recorder's mics aren't nearly as good as the AKGs or the Sennheisers, and my second reaction is that I don't know what the tradeoff is. Additionally, I don't know what a 'stereo field' mic is, or does. Would they be for the main recording of the choir?

I'm not a choir knowledgeable person but, if by 'sections' you mean like alto, bass, etc., they do have those, but from what I've seen they all stand together. I'm sure they're grouped because I've seen certain "groups" of girls sing parts of a song, but not separated by a distance (i.e., they're all shoulder to shoulder).

Another bit of info: When they come in to the church it is from the rear and they're singing when they do it. They march up the center aisle, split into tow columns past the conductor, then form the group on stage. For this reason I don't see how there can be any mic stands on the left or right side. If I do this again next year then something like this could be re-visited so it is done during rehersal.

Six? SIX??? (Okay, I'm calming down) There is another recorder available owned by the conductor and it's a Zoom H4N, so there are more tracks available. With mine I can operate the gain and On/Off functions remotely but with his I cannot. It'd have to be on continuously.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

@ Steve & Rick:
By "main pair" do you mean that the Tascam will be on top of the stand pointed at the choir? and behind the conductor? [deleted]
It's not a very small piece of gear so it'd stand out visually. The one plus I can see is it would be in a flat or prone position so would't be quite as bad.
What about using the Zoom H4n instead? It has a 1/4" thread that might be used for mounting on the back. I was sorta thinking this one might be for the harp with the ME64.

There are only two recorders - beginning to look like more will be needed in the future.

Steven:
Natural reverb: yes, very typical 'old school' church kind of sound. I was actually thinking of mentioning this in the original post but could't come up with the words to describe it.

I can use an Avenger A630B light stand that goes up to 10.8 feet, or about 10' 9". It'd be nicer to have a stand with less of a visual cross-section. From the audience's view it would really stick out. The lighting will be exactly what's shown in the picture so it will definitely be visible.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

This is depressing and not the outcome I had hoped for.

As I read the comments above from learned and esteemed members, it appears the consensus, if I’m getting it right, seems to be to use one of the recorders built-in mics to record the choir. Is that correct?

If so, this is not the outcome I anticipated or hoped for which was to make use of the recorders using the good mics.

What concerns me is:
(1) the quality of the recorders h4n and Tascam built-in mics (or lack of thereof, compared to others available), and
(2) the distance of the recorder from the choir. Given the distance behind the conductor (I’d estimate about 20 feet to the front row) wouldn’t the recording sound very flat and shallow, or thin?

If the choir ties up one of the recorders then there is only one left, so what to do with it? Capture the soloist(s) and the harp? We might be able to run a cable along the foot of the bottom step between the soloist(s) mic and the harp’s mic. That could work.

Are there any other possible options with the kit we have?

Would it be better if the conductor was closer to the choir? If so, I could ask.

More info: There is no organ and no PA system involved.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

The good thing about conductors (well, one of many good things in fact) is that they somehow connive to balance the group so things sound good at the conductor's position. Whether they do it by getting the folks at the outer end of the line to sing/play louder I don't know, but what I do know from having played in amateur musical groups for decades is that the closer you can get the mics to the conductor's position, the better. I play tuba and we're always in the back row and the conductor is always all over us to lead the beat a hair so it doesn't sound like we're lagging.

Any way you could beg, borrow, or rent a good stereo pair for the occasion? I've used a Sony PCM-D50 as a backup clamped to the same mic stand as my main pair. It's not terrible, but I'd sure try hard to get a couple of better mics than the ones built in to the recorder..

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Jim:

Have you read the section on micing choirs in
http://www.shure.com/publications/au...of-worship.pdf

Short of suspending mics from the ceiling, or a complicated bit of rigging you are going to have mic stands. But it is a choir concert, mot a stage play or dance recital so sound will be more important than visuals. Heck, most attendees are not in the front two pews, so their visuals are obstructed by heads anyway. And you can position camcorders to avoid the worst of mic stand obstructions. Mics should be mounted high to get best coverage of a choir so they will not be in the line of sight (only the stands) unless there is a balcony,

And I cannot emphasize enough, run some tests during remaining rehearsals to see how things work and what works best for you.

At this point you are on a very tight time and funds budget. If the group wanted a professional job they would have a corresponding budget and have contracted for it more than a week or two in advance. And keep in mind that what ever you are able to do should be much better than the video from the smart phone in the second row.

In a live situation the human ear can discern what the mic cannot. I doubt he has the outer singers singing louder. The direct sound intensity from a point source (e.g., a vocalist) drops about 6 dB as the distance doubles. The reverberant sound generally does not. That is why it is usually best to have the mics closer to the source, and part of why camcorder mic sound is usually poor.

Sound travels at about 1125 feet per second, so 37 feet further away is about a video frame later compared to visuals..

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

With the two 414s - probably my favourite allrounder - how about using them in M/S, where the slightly different performance won't be an issue? That said, in an uncontrolled environment the results from two similar but not identical mics are much smaller than people often believe. Any chance of trying them out at a rehearsal.

Is flying them on 3mm wire or even nylon 5mm rope totally out of the question? I've even done it with the mic cable supporting the mics when all else failed. Stands, even if you can live with the look often need isolation mounts because the choirs feet bump the stage surface.I'm thinking of UK churches, but with a decent ladder and some wire, it's often fairly simple to get a high level catenary across and then you just hang the mics from it. I realise this simply might be impossible, but floor mics for video always look horrible and in the way - especially when they are very high to cover any second or third row you may have?

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

" 414s - probably my favourite allrounder "
- Same here.
Yeah, an M/S set-up is certainly an option, and would allow the adjustment of width and indirect sound in post. M/S micing however requires skills in set-up.. and in post, so you may want to have the Tascam's X/Y mics for back up.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Lost everything on the post I had just written and have to start over again. This time it will be the short form.

More info: The songs they’re singing are mostly out of the 1400s and 1500s and not the popular songs of today (f.e., Jingle Bells, White Christmas, etc.). The sound of the songs, including the ambience, is like one would envision from some old convent, monastery, or abbey way back in the day, complete with all the natural reverb.

And it is a concert, not a stage play. The church has a really really high ceiling, maybe 40 to 50 feet, and there is no balcony.

Playing ahead of the beat has got to be really difficult. As for picking up another mic or mics, I really doubt it. I typically spend a lot of time researching something and at this point I don't even know where to start.

I'd really like to run some tests but the venue is a full day drive, round trip, and I just don't have the time.
And, yes, it is a very tight time frame. Budget? There isn't one. This is pro-bono. All I wanted to do is get a recording of our granddaughter who will be doing a solo performance. I asked the conductor if this would be possible and he came back with the offer of working together on this and, naturally, I jumped at the offer. This way what ever I could do would be blessed and approved. All he had was the H4n so I thought my kit would be a step up. Well .... I'm learning. Maybe for next year?

Ah ha! You caught that, eh? When I did the screen shot I purposely put it in just for everybody's benefit.

After reading the Shure link, pages 41 > 42, it provided some good input on choir recording. The AKG booklet that came with the mics also had some recommended techniques for choir and backing vocals and it really fit with what everyone has been saying here. For now, I'm resigned to just using one of the recorders for the choir and will work on a setup for the vocalist and the harp.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Paul -
The M/S arrangement seems like it would be the perfect solution with the kit that is available in this situation. I never heard of this arrangement before and the first article I read about it at https://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/ was very positive.

The article also raises the same cautions that Rick mentioned about set-up and post editing. If it weren't for the problems with editing I think this would be the perfect solution, especially when considering that the two C414s aren't exactly a matched pair. In fact, because of the slight difference between them they may actually be the perfect pair!

They both have settings for different polar patterns, from omni to figure eight, AND, one has a slight high frequency boost. The article makes a very positive statement about a mic pair where one is an omni, the other a figure eight, and one slightly brighter than the other, and that's exactly what they are.

With regard to the floor sending vibrations to the mic stand - I don't know if it is concrete or wood, but both mics have their own shock-mount suspension system so that would be helpful.

The really big problem I see here is I've never done this before. It would be a totally new experience, and with time running out. The recorder XY option would be an easier no-brainer and I can handle that. I think. But WoW! this M/S arrangement is VERY interesting.

Edit: Learn something new every day!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Since you're in Tuscon, perhaps you could rent a couple decent mics in an ORTF rig?

Won't be free, but might be $80/day or so... Maybe less if you come across a pair of Rodes or something...

ORTF isn't that hard to set up, sounds good in lots of situations, and is totally doable. At least, in many conditions:


If I'm flying into a location kinda blind and can have a stand in people's sight lines (if I can't fly the mics, that is), ORTF is a great go-to solution.

If not ORTF, I agree about probably leaning on the Tascam's mics and focus on placement (probably behind and above the conductor, if possible).

Lots of good suggestions below. Keep it simple, get good placement, and things will be dandy.

Let us know what you end up doing. Good luck!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

That's a very nice sound!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Jim - thanks for the post and the link. Because of this project I'm learning a lot more about numerous mic placement techniques and this ORTF method is another one that looks like a good repertoire candidate. Never knew there were so many techniques.

Today is Wednesday and the gig is this Friday so I'm really running out of time. Communication with the conductor has been very slow as he is really busy.

Right now my plan is to go with the field recorder which I really hate to do because I really wanted to use the C414s as the main mic(s). The M/S and ORTF techniques look like really good ones to add to my audio capabilities. They are both very interesting.

Okay, so it's the el-cheapo field recorder mics for the main audio capture. (Ugh!).

BREAKING NEWS:
(well, kinda) First, a new information release: The conductor said he placed the field recorder in front of him and estimated that was about 10 feet in front of the choir. I couldn't see it in the screen shot so it must have been down low. If that is the case I will take one of the Avenger tripods with a boom and see if I can talk him into having it behind him and the boom w/ mic over his head. That will be like the Røde video above.

QUESTIONS:
How he recorded the soloist(s) I don't know, unless they were singing into his field recorder, and that could be the case. I don't know if the choir accompanied the soloists or not but I think they could have.

How can I handle the soloist(s) and the harp?
Have a separate mic stand and one of the C414 XLII for the soloist(s) and the C414 XLS or the Sennheiser ME66 for the harp, both running via XLR cables into the Tascam or the H4n?

One thing I'm concerned about is what to do with spillover. Not worry about it? Point the Harp mic away from or toward the choir?

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

This link is to the first of a 6-part series on How To Mic a Choir. It is sponsored by Audix, so they plug their product, but the concepts are worthwhile reviewing.

http://audixusa.com/docs_12/about/vi..._a_choir.shtml

You can reduce spillover by having the spillover source in a null of the mic pickup pattern; e.g., to the rear of a cardioid, and having the mic close to the harp.

The soloist to choir loudness ratio in a given mic can be altered by positioning. The closer soloists are to the mic the louder they will be relative to the choir.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Hey John,

It sounds like this is an audio record only gig? But you have more available mics than record inputs. If I remember correctly don't you have at least one camera with XLR inputs? What about setting up a cover shot and feeding a camera two of your mic sources even if you do not need the video. Sorry if I'm being elementary, you probably have a reason for not doing it but it has not been mentioned.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

I need some clarification from the guys here that are far more nologible than I (thats a lot of you).

I have never been able to wrap my head around ORTF mic placement. The 110 degree spread does not make sense to me. I know the purpose of it is to create a "blended stereo image". But in a case like the Rode video (which sounds great) the entire center of the sound is being picked up off axis of the cardioid pattern. I am told this is where the nice blending comes from. I don't get it because all of my training has always been about using the proper pattern for the job at hand and to generally avoid too much off axis input. Too much off axis sound can lead to coloration or even distortion in extreme cases. The ORTF set up means you are intentionally recording a large portion of the sound off axis.

I suspect to make this work well you must use the proper mics and know their off axis characteristics very well. I suspect that not just any matched pair of cardioids will get a great result? Or am I dead wrong about that? Is good off axis sound one of their strengths?

Kind Regards,

Steve

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique
provides some additional information. The off axis issue will depend on specific mics.

The ORTF puts the center 55 degrees off axis. My impression is that with many cardioids (not hypers) the coloration may not become problematic until more like 75 degrees off axis. In any case it is a technique that works in many situations, not necessarily the "gold standard for micing." As noted in the above write-up let your ears be the judge.

A major benefit of ORTF was reasonable mono playback compatibility, which was a big issue for broadcast and VHS.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Most questions here people want the best audio with their existing equipment and with little to no ability to alter the venue. That’s where best practices diverge. At minimum it would best to mic each stem allowing them to be mixed properly live or in post. You don’t want the harp or the group to over power the soloists. Here the the challenge is micing a large group.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Don - Saw the link wasn't there (I do that a lot, fast "Post" finger), and did a search which instantly got me the link. Very interesting by the way.
)Plug for the MicroBoom? I like it! Actually just got off the phone with Audix. Very helpful people.
Really good video presentation: liked the 6-part breakdown, the summary after the end of each section, etc. The ending of Part 6 was really nice!

This project has been a really good learning exercise for audio. I can see there is a lot to know about nulls and how they can be used to one's advantage. So much to learn, so little time.

Steven -
I can see how it might seem that way .... it's just that it's the audio part I'm having the biggest challenge with. We'll have four cams available. Just discovered I can't find one of my little tripods I planned to use for the harp mic.

I've got a handy JuicedLink Pre that I use with a cam. Had it since the JVC HD7 so that's been a few years. I'm trying to use the recorder more because it can be controlled by iPhone via Wi-Fi and that's been really handy for the fixed cam with mic cables. When I get to the venue tomorrow I'll meet with the conductor and we'll figure out how to split things up, but yes, the JuicedLink + cam can be used as a two channel recorder.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Pete -
This is a tough gig for me not only because of the lack of ideal kit but also because of the part that's not visible ... the interpersonal relationships. I'm a total guest in this, doing what I can pro bono to help out as a tradeoff, all in order to capture a good video of a relative who will be a soloist. For her this is an important life event.

It appears to me that the choir organization feels the video and good audio is less important compared to everything else. With the short notice it's been a scramble to gather information about the venue, how it was done in the past, and find out what is permissible in the way of changes. I'm trying to be very careful to not become a pain.

Doing a choir was never in my plan, but who knows, that could change. I've got a lot of money tied up in kit as it is, probably too much, and, taking up a lot of space, but if this works out I could see additional kit (promise you won't share this with my wife!). Maybe an Audix 84" carbon fiber pole stored in some corner?

Doing this is not unlike football where the quarterback gets rushed, scampers out of the pocket looking for a pass but nobody is clear, starts running toward the scrimmage line but the defense is after him, does a lateral pass to a teammate .... It wasn't in the playbook so sometimes you have to improvise.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Content rules. Most people forgive the video if the content is compelling. Video of family is almost always compelling content.

Poor video is forgiven more than poor audio, but the definition of poor audio for home video starts with what Joe or Jane Sixpack shoot with their hand held cell phone in the third row. So the bar is not very high ( unless you have an established track record). IMHO key factors are to minimize audience and venue background noise, preserving the dynamic range, and avoiding excessive room acoustics such as reverberation. Some reverb is good, but too much will cloud solos and spoken parts.

Paid and invited shoots generally do call for professional levels of effort, or nearly so within the established budget. Walk-on shoots are what ever the walk-on can bring with him and negotiate.

At this point is is a matter of what you have time to do and falls in you comfort zone. Modest quality audio successfully recorded is better than a high quality setup that is botched in execution.

If you have four camcorders, feel free to feed audio to all of them if you have extra mics. The more the merrier, and they can provide fall-back capability. And do not be afraid to use wireless mics if you have reasonable ones available, to feed a camcorder - a potential way to get the harp. (Heck, most live Broadway vocals use wireless mics.)

Good luck and above all enjoy the performance. And let us all know how it went!

And don't do anything too radical with respect to irritating the spouse - that is more important than any pro bono video shoot.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

keep it simple and you’ll do fine. the bar is lower for pro bono work easier to exceed expectations. let us know how it turns out

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Hi John - Good luck!!!!!

I use M/S for about almost all my orchestral recordings - usually Omni and Figure 8 although depending on circumstances I'll use a cardioid or even a wide cardioid. Heck, I even got good results (in a noisy environment) with a Hyper. But I wouldn't try something new in this situation if you hadn't had some practice with it before the big day...

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

John,

The recital is tonight, right? You may not get to read this until after the gig, but just a couple points:

1) Get there early, if possible, and record some of the rehearsal in a couple positions and techniques.
Just get a minute or so at each position. Then walk off to somewhere quiet and give a quick listen on good headphones. That won't provide perfect confidence monitoring (and if you have speakers or something, listen on those), but you'll get some sense of if a particular location is much better or worse than others. Choose the location with the best combination of audio quality, ease of placement, and unobtrusiveness.

2) Don't worry a bunch about separate micing for the harp and soloist.
Let the conductor act as your mixer; he'll guide them on where to play and stand and when to be quieter or louder. Remember, the audience will be hearing the choir, harp, soloist, et al with just two ears in one place; with reasonably neutral placement, it'll work.

3) Have fun!

4) Let us know how it goes!

5) Good luck!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

In all the years (and it's quite a few) that I've been involved with recording stereo, the one thing that firmly sticks in my mind is that the differences between the various forms of single location technique - so I'm including X/Y, M/S, ORTF, Decca Tree and Blumlein and the small variants - is important, but very much related to the space and the mic positions. A compromise in placement, orchestral layout, acoustics, venue size, and mic types completely overshadows the differences moving a pair of mics just a few inches apart makes.

I'm NOT in any way saying these techniques are unimportant - but 90 degrees out to 110 degrees in a compromised venue setup makes no real difference.

We need a bit of practical perspective here. In a non-professional choir or orchestra, you will have prominent sources and totally lost ones. You will also have good performers and less good ones. In most cases, the loud sources are also the ones you really do not want. Much faffing around finding nice ways of moving a problem performer to a position less annoying is more important than the number of degrees, and often ORTF type wider spacing allows the dip in the middle to be populated by less vital people!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Paul -
All I can say is I really appreciate what an effort it can be to record good audio. These past few days as been a massive learning experience learning about all the various ways to mic a choir, but also, at the same time, finding out about techniques one can mic other situations where I have interest. The leap from monaural to stereo, or multichannel, is a big one and using the techniques you mentioned will take some time to become proficient at. Not to mention acquiring a bit more kit.

That was interesting about how to deal with a problem performer by using the dip!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Okay, for all you guys wanting to know “how it goes” … so let’s see how I can summarize it. In case someone didn’t read the posts from the beginning, this was a volunteer pro-bono shoot because I wanted to have a video of a relative who would be singing a solo.

First off, didn’t get back in until midnight, unloaded all the kit out of the car and discovered … well, more on that later.

It was a very hectic past few days in preparing for the choir gig. A combination of trying to find out about the church, the schedule (starting with when they will start and when I could get in), finding out about the gear the conductor has been using, what he wants me to help with, and how I could use my mics to acquire better audio.

As it turned out, communication was, for me, was one of the most difficult parts because all there was were three comparatively short emails. In return, I had lots of questions but received only a few answers so at the end of the day I took along lots of gear to be prepared to wing-it.

After researching everything I could find about miking (or is this spelled micing?) a choir in the limited time available and limited feedback I finally came to the resolution that just using the mics on the field recorder would be the way to go. This wasn’t what I wanted but that’s what happened.

Showed up at the church located in an older built-up neighborhood area where everyone had two or three cars per person and as luck happened (you guys did wish me luck, right?) When we arrived it was raining even though rain was not in the forecast. I found a newly vacated parking spot and grabbed it. Next thing was to find out how to get in and the building across the street was open so I asked someone there. More luck, the person who was the contact person for the church was there and she opened the church side door that was no more than about 15 steps from my car! Wow, this luck thing is working!

The conductor was inside doing a last minute rehearsal with the choir members and was obviously preoccupied. He had his cam set up in the same place as two years ago and the H4n recorder was mounted on a thin boom mic support behind him (See picture) so that was a relief. I always wondered how he did his H4n recording. When he had a moment he said to set my cam up anywhere I thought would look good and said a wide shot from the rear would nice. Finally got a (printed) copy of the program to help plan things.

My wife and daughter wanted to find a place to grab something to eat and I gave them the keys to the car because I had a second set. When I went to bring some more gear in I found the car locked and they were gone. Turned out the “second set” was in the car and with my cell phone! Stuff happens!

Reconnoitered the organ area at the rear of the church and thought that would work well so set the cam up there. When the girls came back I got some more of my gear and set up the AX100 next to the organ (that wouldn’t be used). A handy (as luck would have it) electrical outlet provided power for the cam and I wired up a Sennheiser ME-64 omni to use as a sync mic, ran through the JuicedLink pre to the cam’s audio.

Used the AX53 to take some pre-concert rehearsal shots as a few more people showed up.

Went to set up the AX53 with the Røde Stereo Video Mic near the harp using the small tripod with a plan to use the remote (to avoid walking down the aisle during the concert. There is an aisle on each side of the church that would make it not quite so obvious, but still, it would be obvious. Luck finally ran out. The quick release plate didn’t fit the tripod!!! Couldn’t believe it because I had checked to make sure everything was working okay, including the plate! Switched the AX53 over to the monopod and during the harp solo I setup in the “outside aisle” and got a clip of her playing. Hid behind one of the columns and used it to help steady the monopod.

In the end I did get one long concert shot from the back and some assorted shots with the AX53. That evening at our daughters house I discovered the missing quick release plate - it was on the Tascam recorder!

Oh, and what happened when I unloaded the car? The AX53 was … MISSING! Disaster struck. Looked through everything and it just wasn’t there. It was now midnight and I called our daughter to see if I left it in their house somewhere but said that, perhaps, it might be somewhere around where the car was. It was in a black camera bag that was very padded. As it turned out, she found it outside on the porch. Well, that’s the bad part about black kit items and doing any work when it is dark.

The good part:
Learned a heck of a lot about multichannel audio! A real crash course. Got some good video, didn’t enjoy the concert nearly as much as everyone else because I was totally fixating on the shoot.
For me, the new expanded knowledge about various audio techniques was the biggest thing that came out of this. How to make audio things disappear is right up there with Noa Put’s how to make video things disappear!
For next time: Improve on how to keep better track of my gear. And who knows, choir shooting might even become addictive.

The mic can be seen better in this picture but in the original picture (post #1) it wasn't as apparent.

Second picture: view toward rear of church during practice, AX100 set up next to organ

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Are you satisfied with the sound you got? Did the solos come out well? The harp?

Just a thought. The reason a wedding photographer gets the best shots is in part because he/she is obvious, running up and down the isles to the extent the venue allows. So if movement is needed to get the best sound, and within venue rules, don't hesitate

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Thanks for the update John - it's always nice to hear the story - and I feel for you on the lost items. I got a call once from the Police at 3am, asking if I had lost anything? No I said. Are you sure? Still no idea. The Policeman said how about YELLOW. I sat bolt upright in bed. Back then I had a matched pair of AKG 451 condensers, with the cathedral extension tubes, and they lived in a bright yellow peli type case! I'd left them on the roof of my car, and I drove off with them still on top! Somebody handed them in and the police called the phone number on the case. To rub it in, they made me get out of bed and drive 5 miles to the Police Station to collect them. One of the Policemen knew how much they cost and I got ribbed mercilessly. Bounced down the road, and still worked perfectly.


On the spelling front, many years ago I decided to not go with the flow, and I always use miked for past tense, shorten microphone to mic, and spend too long miking up. I don't object to any other spellings with the exception of mic'ing - which for some odd reason just works like fingernails on a blackboard.

When Music Technology burst into education here in the UK in the 90s, I was one of the people who organised the first UK qualifications, and we instigated one paper that required students to record what we called the 'natural acoustic' recording. Direct to stereo recording, as opposed to multitrack studio stuff.

It was the most horrible thing we ever did. Far, far to hard a task for newcomers to recording. Not for technical reasons but simply because they needed very good ears. In the studio, there are so many books and now internet sources saying exactly where a mic goes on a snare, or violin, or practically any instrument. Manufacturers like Shure publish stuff showing how their mics should be chosen and used. Nothing like this works for a choir in a church - especially the more traditional buildings like in the pictures above. In the exams, we'd have some students in a small school with a pair of AKG C1000s (probably the most detested mics in the world, if you read the forums!) compared to students at a public school with a mic cupboard full of Neumanns) Very often, the C1000s would sound better, and get better grades, because putting two U87s in front of a choir needs ears to set them up, and that's where the students suffer. The C1000s, often by luck, end up in the special place where they just work! I wasn't sad when this section of the exam was removed, because a gorgeous sounding building with two cheap condensers could get better grades than a terrible sounding room with some clever techniques and excellent mics.

The DPA university (Google it) has really good explanations of how the techniques differ.

By the way, in the UK Public schools are the posh ones where parents pay for the children to attend, and State schools are where everyone else goes (confusing because we don't have US type States, we have counties - and the word State is used to mean the whole of the United Kingdom. That's confused everyone now!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Don - been all day doing catch-up on stuff …. then trying to figure out the best way to transfer the video files to the Conductor who will be editing everything. He uses Vega (don’t know which version) and a PC while I use FCPX and a Macintosh. Files are saved on SD cards formatted in their cameras for use with a Mac. Still haven’t found out how to do this.

Did some shopping for a 32GB SD card, one that I could still use if it got returned but one that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg if it doesn’t. Debating how much I wouldn’t mind loosing if it wasn’t returned. Big price difference between the U3 C10 and the U1 C10, not to mention UHS-I vs UHS-II. Hate to get something that will be obsolete.
Anyway, getting back to your question (Just trying to avoid answering it ‘cuz I’m a bit bummed!):

For the want of a horseshoe nail a city was lost, and paraphrasing, For the want of a tripod quick release plate a second video angle was lost. There were two tripods specifically for the B-roll cam and the recorder but the quick-release plate wouldn’t fit one of the tripods so that angle went away. Kinda.

Later, toward the end of the concert I used the AX53 cam and the Røde mic on a monopod and got some nice angle shots with the harp that will be useable. The audio will be, well, um, okay.

From the wedding shoot last August (my first), several posters commented that I needed to be less hesitant about being obvious; unfortunately, I’m not quite there yet. Still feel like a guest in someone else’s house. Gotta work on it some more, though.

Paul -
Good story! The car roof is a handy place to put things, don’t ask me how I know. Lost several pair of good sunglasses that way myself, but a pair of mics? Gotta hand it to ya, that’s a one up on me! Thank goodness you live in a place where there are civilized kind people that would turn in something like that. A little bit of luck didn’t hurt, either. And it’s good that the police lost-and-found department didn’t re-loose them. When I was a kid we came across a skeleton in the woods, reported it to the police, and turned in a bunch of late 1800 coins (in nice condition), well, most of them anyway. Never saw them again.

YELLOW! That's a nice color. For me, Yellow-glow-in-the-dark would be even better!

Blackboard? You remember blackboards? Okay, so that wasn’t all that long ago, right? Wonder where they all went? Pool tables?

As for spelling, going to the Shure and Audix web sites I see they were spelling the various mic forms using a “k”; however, inasmuch spelling was never my strong suit I like to go my own way. Since everybody uses “mic” as short form for microphone I feel it only fair to spell it using a “c”. Maybe it makes me feel better ‘cuz now the English teacher can’t grade me!!! There ain't nut'in (or is that nuttin'?) they can do to me now. Texting is going to create a new generation, or new wave, of spellers in the workplace. How to murder a language, eh? (I live near the Canadian border)

With regard to micing … er, make that miking (an old dog can learn new tricks), things, my hearing isn’t what it used to be. Unfortunately, the days of ear-abuse, not to mention time, have taken their toll so I’m relying a lot more on what the computer, VU meters, wave forms, more volume, and what others tell me. Bummer.

Mikng/micing the acoustic accordion will be another challenge I'm looking forward to.

As for the bad reviews on mics, one thing to consider is there are a lot of counterfeit copies out there. And of course, I don't have one of them. Counterfeit imports have been going on since the days of Shure M91ED and V15 Type III and IV phono cartridges and nothing has changed so I take bad reviews of some items, especially mics, with a grain of salt. In the case of the C414s, I opted to buy them new through an AKG dealer and hang on to the paper trail.

DPA university: that's an interesting site and I'll check it out some more later.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

You might now have a better appreciation for keeping it simple . Sounds like you caught a good deal of luck the camera not being stolen, equipment locked in car, etc. I’d recommend building a kit you can transport in one trip and don’t mix tripod systems. Mistakes are more likely when you’re rushing and you don’t have well planned kit that can be deployed quickly.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Well, John, I dispensed advice on page 1, you asked some questions, and I dropped out of sight. Poor form, right? I wasn't getting e-mail updates to this thread. Haven't a clue why.

Congrats on surviving the experience. Live and non-repeatable performances always ratchet up the tension and stress, and I think you've discovered several times over that something unexpected always drops into your lap. Would you consider sharing an excerpt of at least your audio recording (if you're allowed to)?

Many years ago I started out recording video of choir performances with a single pair of mics, and it wasn't long before I came to grips with the fact that performances of choral, chamber, and orchestral music are really audio events with a video component. Now I regularly record concerts with 16+ channels of audio supported by boatloads of audio gear.

As was mentioned in a previous post, I think, viewers will forgive sub-par video, but not audio. So, if you're serious about upping your game, even on (the very generous!) volunteer basis supporting your recent effort, slowly build up your audio kit. You got a tremendous wealth of advice and resources in this thread. Just a pair of small diaphragm cardioid mics in ORTF configuration (because it's very forgiving of placement) is the simplest setup I can think of, assuming you'd have a good recorder and monitoring (headphones), and you'd be delighted to hear the results.

On the matter of mic stand placement, because it's absolutely critical, there is no way around this: either the video looks good, or the audio sounds good. An audience and videographer must accept the slight intrusion of a mic stand (or several mic stands), if decent audio is to be had. Truly, they accept the presence of someone standing in the middle of it all through an entire concert, dressed in black, and waving their hands around during each piece, right? I work with one conductor who refuses to let me put up stands where they belong, and the audio suffers. Another conductor I work with probably wouldn't flinch at a forest of stands, but they are really pleased with my recordings.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Always carry a roll of gaffers tape (or if in a bind, duct tape) and some coat hanger wire.

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Another quick reply here - things are really busy, getting organized for Christmas. However, here goes.

First off, after hitting the “Send” button and re-reading my post #36 where I wrote abut counterfeit mics and said “And of course, I don't have one of them,” please be aware that this was intended as being a facetious comment because we all feel we bought the real thing and not a counterfeit, right? Many of my mics were bought used but were examined closely and the whole transaction (seller, documentation, etc.) weighed, figuratively speaking, to decide if it was counterfeit or not. Sometimes it’s a tough decision, so I really hope that everything is legit. Anyhow, moving on….

Pete - A lot of good statements there, totally agree. I do have a Pelican case with those Velcro dividers that has worked really well for a few years and just by looking at it one can see if one of the big items is missing. In one spot, though, are all the little pieces so it is more of.a challenge. I've been thinking of how to organize things better when going out and that's a work (or plan?) in progress.

Steven -
Hey, it's actually not over yet! I'm in "post mode" now and trying to figure out how to share my stuff to someone with a PC and running Vegas (version unknown) while I'm on a Mac. And I hope to get his audio and video for my editing.

"Would you consider sharing an excerpt of at least your audio recording (if you're allowed to)?" While I'm allowed to share, realize that it's only sync track material. The Røde mic on the cam for the harp, briefly, and the ME-64 with the cam near the organ. Never got to use the 414s.

Looking back, all I ever wanted to record with video was two or three items: instrument (piano, accordion, vocal, cello, guitar) but not all of those together. More like a couple items, maybe three, and this not intended for any big time thing, just more personal and for sharing. Until getting the AKG mics my kit was really just for video. Recording a choir is a whole different ballgame!

Could the C414s be used for something like that? I know they're slightly different models but I've also read where the II's bump really wouldn't be noticed that much. The one girl I'm trying to capture this for only has maybe two years left before she's graduated out of it

I would really like to help the choir out with better audio although I do think the conductor has a fairly good handle on the concept. The stage was a lot wider than I thought it would be based on the picture and it may be, and I’ll bet it is. It's possible that the H4n’s cardioid diagram isn’t wide enough to cover the vocalists on each end but I'd like to research this. Also, the H4n may be placed almost too far back from the front row. This is where the ORTF technique might be helpful but the H4n does have a small visual footprint from the audience.

I’ve got a 100-ft cloth surveyors tape and had the plan to take some measurements (for next time) and forgot to bring it. While camped out next to the organ I thought about just pacing it off … and forgot to do that too, but the dimensions are much larger than I thought they would be.

With regard to conductor concerns on mic placement, I don't know where this conductor is. He is obviously okay with his small recorder setup. Hope to find out more if the working relationship improves.

Don - did have a roll of 2” blue 3M tape along, but coat hanger??? Couldn’t I just throw my jacket on the back of a chair? Ya got me on that one!

Re: Audio Micing Church Choir
 

Yes, C414s (and other large diaphragm cardioid (LDC) mics) can be used to record choirs, but they are usually not pressed into service for this purpose because LDC's typically have off-axis coloration. (And in your case, the un-matched 414's would militate against their use!)

Even so, at one time I did experiment with my pair of matched 414's on a few recordings. Here is one example featuring one of our state's top high school choirs. The only processing was some RX to eliminate ventilation noise.