Soundboard Cables
 

As I said in my intro post, most of your threads/topics have been over my head. I'm unemployed and being forced to make some money from my video and graphics hobbies (which is kind of fun, so I'm not complaining). But my goal is to improve and I'm starting at the bottom.

I chose not to use the soundboard at my last project (ballet recital). The built in Mic on my GL1 did a terrible job. I was embarrassed, so I bought the Rode Video Mic and I'm looking forward to working with it. However, I would like to buy cables for the soundboard.

I saw three from Hosa. All were 3.5 Mini to 1/4". But they had different balance/unbalance specs.

My question is: Do I need all three? If so, when do I know which to use?
Thanks,
Scott

As to how many to buy, how generic do you want your kit - just to match this one installation or something you could use in a variety of locations? According to what I read, the GL1 mic input is rated at -55dB stereo unbalanced. You'll need to see what the soundboard that you want to connect to is putting out and attentuate accordingly. First off is the mixer output you're tieing into stereo or mono? Balanced or unbalanced? Pro +4dBU or prosumer -10dBv line level?

Thanks Steve, but that was what I was talking about when I said most of this is over my head. But from what I gleaned, the camera remains the same, the board is the variable, and I need all three for whatever situation arises.

Since I didn't understand the answer, will I be able to tell what cable works best by trial and error and monitoring the sound with head phones? Or will any problems or successes only become apparent when I go to edit the tape in FCP?

Thanks,
Scott

Well, monitoring with headphones is defnintely a good practice in any case <g>. As for the rest ... an excellent book would be either "Producing Great Sound for Digital Video" and/or "Audio Postproduction for Digital Video" both by Jay Rose. You don't need a degree in engineering but acquiring a little knowledge of decibels and such would be very helpful and either of those two books are very readable introductions.

Not knowing what you already know it's hard to answer you better so forgive me if I bore you with basics you already know. Essentially the strength of sound and the electrical signals representing it are measured in decibels or dB. Each 3dB means about twice as loud or conversely -3dB means half as loud. Electrical circuits are designed to operate within a certain range and they work best when their inputs see signals with a certain range of levels determined by their designers and they also will send their outputs at some specific design level. Mixers and such send their signals at fairly high levels called line level (and to keep us on our toes, the "line level" of professional gear is standardized at about 12dB stronger than the "line level" of consumer gear like our cameras.) Microphones, on the other hand, usually produce much weaker signals than that and the inputs designed for them are usually very sensitive. If you take a microphone and plug it into an input that expects a line level signal, like a power amplifier, it will be very very faint if audible at all. OTOH, if you send a line level signal into an input designed for a microphone it will be so much stronger than the intended input level that it will overload the circuits and generate a lot of noise and distortion. So the trick is to put some attenuation called "pads" into the line between the two to drop the mixer's output down to what the camera is designed to accept. Mixers will output one of two different standard line levels, either a standard pro line level or a consumer level which is about 12 db lower, while your camera wants to get a much weaker mic level at about -55db. If the mixer put out the pro line level you need to drop it by a total of about 57dB while if it puts out the lower consumer line level you need to drop it by about 45dB. (The pro is labeled +4dBU while the consumer is labeled -10dBV. Because a "dBU" and a "dBV" are slightly different, +4 and -10 are actually a little less than 12dBV apart. Ain't that weird?)

A second factor to consider is the nature of the cable and its connections. Unbalanced circuits send the signal down on one wire, the "signal" wire, and return it on a second ground path that also usually serves double duty as the shield in an audio cable. An unbalanced stereo cable has two signal wires, left and right, and a single shared return usually through the shield. Balanced, otoh, has one signal split into two, one-half the pair is inverted, and then they are sent simultaneously out on two wires, called "hot" and "cold" with a third wire for the ground and shield. At the other end, the hot and cold are recombined into one signal again. Special circuits in the devices at each end take care of the balancing and unbalancing act. The exact technical meaning of all that isn't so important as it is understand that a balanced output and cable and an unbalanced input can't just be plugged into each other and expected to work properly. (Okay, well sometimes you can get away with it.) A simple adapter would connect the balanced "hot" wire to the unbalanced signal wire, the balanced shield to the unbalanced shield/ground, and the balanced "cold" wire is either left unused or bridged over to the unbalanced ground also. An unbalanced stereo cable and connector has two wires carrying two different L & R signals and a single ground. A balanced cable and connector ALSO has two wires and a ground but it carries ONE MONO signal split into two halves and combined again at the destination end. The plugs at the ends of the two cables might look exactly the same and in fact they both might be wired exactly the same and you could interchange them. A patch cord with a 1/4" TRS plug wired straight through to another 1/4" TRS plug tip-to-tip, ring-to-ring, and shield-to-shield could be used to carry a balanced mono signal, a single unbalanced mono signal, or two unbalanced stereo signals. It's the circuits it's plugged into at each end that make all the difference in the world.

In our case, the GL1 expects a simple unbalanced signal at the mike input (actually two of them if you plan to record in stereo) and doesn't have the necessary circuits to accept a balanced signal properly - it's up to us to provide the conversion if we're feeding the camera from a balanced source. At the same time we need to reduce the high line level signal from the mixer down to the much weaker level the camera expects. The manual says the camera sensitivity is -55db. That means if the mixer is putting out the consumer -10db line level, we have to subtract another 45dB to match it right. If it's putting out the professional line level which is about 12 db stronger than the consumer standard, we have to lose more like 57dB. If the mixer output is unbalanced we don't have to worry about that part of the equation because the camera is too. Some mixers are balanced only, some are switchable depending on how the cable plugged into it is wired, and some actually have both separate balanced and unbalanced outputs to choose from. Since the camera is unbalanced, if the mixer output is also unbalanced we're done when we've got the levels matched up. If it's a balanced output we have to unbalance it as well. That simple unbalancing connection I described in the above paragraph loses about 6db all by itself so if we were connecting a single balanced professional mixer output to just one channel of the mic input on the camera, we'd need to have about a -50dB pad in the line - that plus the -6dB loss in the balanced/unbalanced adapter itself gets the two signals close enough together for government work. The camera actually has an I think -30dB pad built in that you can switch on from the menu so that can account for part of the required drop if you wish to use it.

The only way to know for sure what adapter to use and how much pad to use is to look up the specs for that specific mixer brand and model.

The camera mic input expects a stereo mic, a two'fer, so its plug is a stereo mini plug carrying both left and right channels with unbalanced connections. The mixer probably provides two separate outputs, one for each each channel. If you want to record in stereo and if the mixer outputs are unbalanced you need to connect them through the required pads to a "Y" dual-mono-to-stereo adapter at the camera end to feed both left and right mic inputs. If they're balanced, you need to feed them both through a pad in each line to an unbalancing adapter for each one and then from there to the "Y" that plugs into the camera.

I don't know what adapters you've been looking at so I can't make specific recommendations. Hosa makes a ton of different adapters. One thing is for certain - don't try to use a 1/4" TRS to 3.5mm stereo mini-plug adapter from a balanced mono out on the mixer to the camera's mic input. You could end up with a strange situation where the same signal is recorded equally on the camera's left and right channels but 180 degrees out of phase. When you play it back in your editor if you listen to just the left or right channel you'll hear it fine, if you play it in stereo you'll hear it but it'll sound out of kilter, and if you try to play back both channels together in mono like many TVs would do they'll cancel each other out and you'll get silence.

Those books I mentioned have some good diagrams that makes this all easy to follow.

Scott:

First figure out which audio you want to record. You probably want a mix of ambience (with audience clapping, and reverb) and the feed from the sound board.
You can go with only the sound from their board, but it will not have any reverb on it (which can be wierd).

Suppose you want a feed from the board and ambience.
You should use a seperate recorder for the sound, that would be easiest. Put it by their audio board, and get a feed from it (befriend the audio person). A lot of recorders will take +4dBu or -10dbV line-level inputs, which makes your life easier.

Example recorders:
DAT (i.e. Tascam) - only thing you have to worry about is digitizing the DAT. It should have a digital output for lossless transfer.
laptop with audio interface - records a long time, can record multiple tracks depending on audio interface. If you own a laptop, this can be a good route.
compact flash recorder (i.e. marantz, sound devices)
mini-disc - consumer units have a bunch of catches to them.
I'd look at possibly renting one. Unfortunately I can't say which option would be the best for you. You're looking at things like whether or not you can rent it, how you're going to get the audio into your editing system, cost, and ease of use.

Sync: You'll have to sync the two up, but this isn't a big deal. Having a sync point will make life easier... a slate with a clapper will give you a visual and audio cue. If they have a mic hooked up to their board, then do that. If that isn't possible, it's not a big deal through audio.
When shooting, don't start/stop the tape so you only have to sync once.
Some recorders will drift 1 frame every half hour or so in relation to video, so that's something to watch out for. You'll need to sync the beginning and end, and stretch the audio (don't pitch shift).

Setting levels: Make sure you don't clip. Some recorders have limiters which kind of help prevent that (you get distortion instead of digital clipping).


Other options:
A- You could buy/rent a Beachtek or similar XLR adapter. I think you're looking for a model that accepts mini-plug and XLR.
In one channel, you record a feed from the board.
In the other channel, use a microphone to record ambience.
In post just center both channels.
Stereo honestly makes little difference because most people's systems aren't setup to do it. One advantage of this is that you get to monitor all your sources, and it can be easier.
Get a big roll of gaffer tape to tape down a long XLR cable. I've bought gaffer tape on eBay for $5USD on eBay + shipping. Otherwise it's like $12-20+shipping. Gaffer tape doesn't leave gunk behind... it's a nicer on the venue.


B- You could get an adapter to take the board feed (and even the miniplug input).
Caveats:
The adapter needs a DC blocking capacitor to block out "mic plug-in power" that most camcorder mic jacks put out. That power will cause hum/buzz in your audio.
The adapter needs to bring levels down to what the camera likes. I'd probably use a mixer to do this, because you don't know what level they're going to send from their feed. Plus, it takes balanced signals.

You might as well just get a Beachtek?

Steve's Mixer Advice
 

Thanks Steve, I ordered "Great Sound" today from Amazon. I read all the reviews and "Great Sound" seemed like the one to start with. I've been reading your very long post over and over trying to translate it (You really went all out- thanks). So each 3DB or -3DB means twice or half as loud. Thanks. I'm grasping what you said about the expectation difference between equipment (Mic to amplifier vs. Mixer to Camera's mic jack). I grasp the need for attenuator (mixer to camera).

You said a mixer will output one of two different standard line levels (pro or consumer line level) and that consumer level is about 12dB lower than Pro Level. You also said my GL1 expects to received a -55dB signal. You said I could expect to receive a consumer level of about -10dB requiring me to turn it down by -45db. And I could expect a pro level of about 12 db, requiring me to turn it down 12 more than 45 or -57dB. (Am I following you correctly?)

After reading your description of the mixer and its output settings and the difference between Pro and Consumer Level, my first question concerns the mixer.

Are you talking about 1 mixer that outputs both levels? Or are you talking about two different mixers, one that does Pro and another that does consumer?

I noted what you said about the different labeling for Pro and Consumer (dBU vs. dBV).

You said the second factor is the nature of the cable and its connections. Thanks to your description, I can now visual the difference between balanced and unbalanced cables. An unbalanced carries left/right signals on two different wires and a balanced cable carries these signals on one wire. The destination device deals with the balancing/unbalancing act.

You said my GL1 expects to receive an unbalanced signal either mono or stereo. I must help convert the signal to unbalanced if it arrives from a balanced source, while reducing the strong originating line level.

You said a soundboard could come with several options or none and that I might have to research the equipment to tell if its signal will be balanced or unbalanced. Assuming I make the determination. Would I do it as follows?

Without a mixer:
Balanced Soundboard: Use balanced ¼ to unbalanced mini into the camera.
Unbalanced Soundboard: Use Unblanced ¼ to unblanced mini into the camera.
Hope for the best because my signal will be too strong without a mixer.

With a mixer:
If the mixer has unbalanced outlets, I use a Y cable with the mini to the camera and the other 2 ends into the mixer. Is this Y cable balanced or unbalanced? Does it matter? What kind of end plugs into a mixer? Is it XLR (heard of it/never seen it)?

If the mixer has balanced outlets, I use the same as above. However I need to use a converter to unbalance the signal. This converter plugs into the mixer and the Y cable plugs into converter's other end.

Even if I'm right or close on the above connection between camera and mixer, I'm not visualizing the connection between soundboard and mixer. Is it similar? If the soundboard is balance or unbalanced connect it accordingly so that the signal enters the mixer as unbalanced?

You said:
"The camera actually has a -30dB pad built in that you can switch on from the menu so that can account for part of the required drop if you wish to use it."

What do you mean by that? I see where i can turn the Attenuator on or off. When I turn it on, the volume records noticeably softer.

Thanks Steve. I'm really trying and I appreciate all the effort you put into that last answer.
-Scott

Glenn's Beachtek thoughts
 

Hey Glenn,
Your 1st paragraph nailed my motivations.

" First figure out which audio you want to record. You probably want a mix of ambience (with audience clapping, and reverb) and the feed from the soundboard. You can go with only the sound from their board, but it will not have any reverb on it (which can be wierd)."

So yes, that's what I want to achieve.

You mentioned using sound recorders and listed several kinds with some advantages and disadvantages. I think ease of use and cost would be more important factors to me at this stage in the game versus quality.

Would compact flash be viable? If so, what should I look for in terms of brands/models/size? Do they record as MP3 or Aif? Would I be able to hear it through headphones as it played? Would I need to run it through a mixer before sending the sound to the compact flash? Or would I download it straight to Itunes from the compact flash?

Syncing: Yes I made the stop/start/stop/start mistake the last time so I couldn't even use my borrowed 2nd camera's audio or visual. I see what you mean here and will learn from that mistake. I just did a practice test filming a Kid Rock song with my camera and Rode Video Mic and captured it into FCP3. I think put the aif file from CD under it and synced it together and was please with the results. However, I'm wondering if I'm doing it the right way. I'm trying to determine where the film sound track and the CD audio track start using the time line and then using the razor at my guess point. Should I be doing the syncing somewhere else like in the viewer?

At the end, you said that it sounds like I need to bite the bullet and get a Beachtek. Maybe you're right. However, is a Beachtek a mixer or it different?

Can you wade through my drabble and point me in the right direction if I can express what it is I'd like to do.

As of today, I own one GL1, one Rode Video Mic, one Tripod, and one Mac G4 with FCP3. I've ordered some 10 foot line cables and a set of head phones. I want to concentrate on weddings. With this in mind, I know I need some additional equipment.

I was thinking about getting a cheap Mini DV camera for use as a second camera and to use for capturing tape so I don't wear out the GL1.

I think the GL1 and Rode Mic will take me anywhere I want to go at a reception as long as I have a shoulder unit for the camera.

I think I need some strategy for equipment buying to handle the ceremony. I'm thinking that I would need two wireless mics for the couple. This gets confusing, because I've heard of the preacher wearing the church's wireless mic and they're being feed back from the video man's wireless mics. Something to be concerned with, perhaps? Or should a wireless shotgun mic be set up behind the altar? I don't know, I'm just imagining here.

Where do the wireless mic signals go? Do they go to a Beachtek? Is a Beachtek also a mixer? Does the Beachtek need to hooked up to a camera? Or does it have some kind of hard drive?

You see where I'm heading. I have a desire, but I do not have a clue? I almost feel that at this point, I need some direction on what kind of equipment to get and then I need to spend the time to learn how to use that equipment. So what kind of equipment should I focus on if I have a $5,000 budget?

Thanks a bunch,
Scott

A wedding is a different scenario from a ballet recital.

The two most popular ways of capturing the wedding vows:

Both involve putting a lav on the groom or ?officiant?. Ideally you would do both of them I'm guessing.

A- Record to a portable recorder, which stays on the groom or officiant. mini-disc, iRiver are two of the most popular choices.
The lav will need to work with that recorder.
mini-disc: upload limitations, but not as much of a problem with the new hiMD units. hiMD can upload only once unless you hack it. As far as I know.
You'll need to set levels and make sure the groom/officiant doesn't mess with the recorder.

B- Use a wireless transmitter/receiver, and record into your camera.
The good wireless systems use XLR, so you may want a beachtek for your camera.
Downsides: Wireless consumes a lot of batteries, and is kinda expensive when you consider the capital and recurring costs from batteries. For weddings you aren't using too many batteries compared to shooting narrative/drama.
Wireless is prone to dropouts/interference.

A popular recommendation is for the Sennheiser G2 system (which uses cheap AA batteries). There are other recommendations for cheaper systems.
Price correlates with audio quality (not a big deal here) and reliability against dropouts/interference.

I don't have any experience shooting weddings so I can't give you the ins and outs of using either method.


For all the other audio (i.e. reception), the Rode Videomic should be fine.

2- The Beachtek is an adapter box for XLR --> mini. It handles the unbalancing of the audio and blocking mic plug-in power. It also has volume controls, but from what I hear the changes happens in "steps" and not smoothly like a mixer.
Some of the models have features like:
phantom power for microphones that need it
limiters - you get distortion instead of clipping. Mild limiting is impossible to hear. Effectively you get a little more headroom.
preamps (DXA8)- can give you better S/N ratio by using the better Beachtek preamps instead of your camera's.
With certain cameras, the DXA10 may be better because it outputs consumer line-level signals. Some cameras can take line-level in.

In FCP, scrub through the footage and put a marker on the sync point.
In the viewer, the marker will end up in the clip.
In the timeline, select the clip first and then hit "m" when the playhead is on the sync point.

Do this for all sources.

Click on the area above the marker and slide it left/right to the right position. turn snapping on (hotkey: n) to get the markers to snap.
If you click anywhere else on the clip, the markers inside won't be snap points.

Sync points:
Visual cues: Slate/clapper when the two meet; any object hitting the ground: there will be a corresponding audio spike; plosives in dialog b's and p's there's silence when the speaker's lips are closed, and then sound when the lips open; drum stick hitting a drum
If syncing video to video, bring a flash along and just sync to that.
Through audio: Turn waveforms on in sequence settings. Look for a spike you can match up.
With some audio sources that may be harder. A lot of CDs mastered nowadays have excessive compression so the waveform looks like a big rectangle.

See comments embedded
..
Yes, No, and Maybe LOL - some mixers are pro level only, some are prosumer only, some have two sets of outputs with a set at each level, and others are selectable with switches or by software. It depends on the brand and model. Some also have a both balanced and unbalanced outputs - the so-called "tape out" outputs are frequently a pair of L/R unbalanced RCA jacks like the red and white jacks on the back of your VCR and carry the same signal as the balanced XLR connector "main outs."

Not quite. Both cables have two signal wires and a shield for a total of three conductors. The balanced connection carries one mono signal using the two wires (called "hot" and "cold") and the shield in sort of an electronic menage-au-trois <g>. A stereo connection also has the same two wires and shield, it's an identical cable and even the connector's can be the same as well, but its connections carry *2* different mono signals to make the stereo, the left channel carried between one wire and the shield and the right channel between the other wire and the shield, both channels sharing the shield as a common return path.

An unbalanced MONO cable, like each of the left and right paired cables on your stereo, has a single wire and the shield to carry the one signal.


The soundboard IS a mixer so I wasn't necessarily thinking about you adding a second one in the line to your camera although that certainly could be done and it would give you more control over what's feeding the camera.


With or without...

Look carefully at the miniplug on the end of your headphones cable. See how it's divided into three segments? There's the tip, then there's a little insulating ring, another short length of metal, another little insulating ring, and then the majority of the length of the plug. The end is called the "tip" (surprise!) the next bit of metal is called the "ring", and the longest part is called the "sleeve." (That's where the term "TRS Connector" comes from.) In a stereo connection the tip is the left channel signal, the ring is the right channel signal, and the sleeve is the common return ground. Your camera is wired for a stereo microphone that has the same arrangement, the mic actually being two mics in the same handle with one of them connected to the tip and the other to the ring.

You mission, should you choose to accept it, is as follows:

If you're using an unbalanced pair of output connectiors on the soundboard, one for left and the other for right, (get "Y" adapters that) connect the pin in the center of the connector in the left channel jack (usually white) to the tip of the miniplug into your camera, the pin in the right jack (usually red) to the ring of the miniplug, and the sleeve of both jacks to the sleeve of the miniplug at the camera end.

If you're using the BALANCED outputs on the soundboard you might be using two of them for a left and right stereo signal pair, or just one of them for a mono signal. Coming from each balanced output you need to convert the signal in each cable to unbalanced them - two unbalancing adapters - and then to the "Y" connector so the left channel goes to the tip and the right channel goes to the ring of the miniplug. If the signal from the soundboard is mono, you'll only have one cable to worry about and the unbalancing adapter just needs to send signal to the tip of the minipug, the ring and right channel being unused.

Adapters like the Beachteks Glenn recommended make it simple because they can do all this in a single box and even take a single mono input and parallel connect it properly to both the left and right channels on the camera's miniplug so you can record the same signal to both channels at once.

As you gathered, the high signal coming off of the soundboard will have to be dropped in level so it doesn't overload the mic input on the camera. Let's say we've figured out we need to drop it by 50db. According to the camera manual, there's an attenuator switch (as you've discovered) that puts a 30db attenuator on the input when switched in. That's why the sound is softer - the attenuator reduces the signal just as it enters the camera and makes it weaker. That's eactly what we need to do with the signal from the soundboard, just more so. So if we need to lose a total of 50db, we can take care of 30 of that by switching on the attenuator in the camera and add an inline pad that loses another 20db to come to the total of 50db we're looking for. Shure makes one that sells for about $45 that's switchable between I think it's -10db, -20db, and -25db and you'd need one for each cable from the soundboard. Again, soundboards are different from one another and some have level trim controls on each output that would let you turn it down by 20db as it leaves the board so the pad in the line might not even be needed at all. This would be especially true if the board had the unbalanced left and right "tape out" mentioned above and you were able to use them to feed your camera. Something like the Beachtek is often able to accomplish a lot of the sort of thing in one box. I'm just a big believer in understanding what the black boxes need to do so you can choose the right ones.

Hope this is helping.

Scott, if you can give us the make and model of that house mixer you want to take a feed from, we can probably tell you exactly what cables you need.

For wedding-specific advice, be sure to check out the wedding and event forum on this site. If you have a $5000 budget above the GL1 you already own, you can assemble a very good wedding outfit. Even I have some recommendations, but they would be off topic for this forum.

But do let me repeat this sage advice: For weddings you want to have backups for everything. If you think you were embarrassed by the sound quality at the recital, imagine how you (and the principles) would feel if you were dead in the water at a wedding. Been there (years ago, s-video days). Pretty much lost a friend.

Steve:
A think there's a few important things a Beachtek does better than a simple adapter.
A- The mic jacks on camera will put out "mic plug-in power" (or whatever the proper term for it is). If using a simple adapter, it may not have a blocking capacitor which allows hum/buzz into the recorded audio.
B- It unbalances the audio while maintaining the noise cancellation of balanced signals. For long runs this is very nice.
C- Pots to trim the levels down so they don't overload the camera's inputs. At the same time, you can maximize the S/N ratio you're getting out of your camera.

Glenn, point of information: Unlike Sonys, GL1 and GL2 don't have powered mic jacks.

Agree completely - just was giving Scott "food for thought" as to what all the terms mean, what needs to be accomplished at the signal level and why it's important. Didn't mean to suggest that a simple adapter would do it as well as a purpose built tool like the Beachtek. Something like the DXA-4P, perhaps with a little extra attentuation in the line(s) coming from the soundboard, seems almost ideal for him if he ties into balanced line level outputs on the board. (I'd be a little cautious sending full +4dBU line level straight to the Beachtek, I don't know how susceptible its input might be to overload even in the LINE setting). OTOH, if he ties into unbalanced line level outputs on the board like its tape-outs, the Beachtek might not be the best option.

'Course he could always get something like a Sound Devices 302 or 442 and be all set for almost anything he might run into. Little bit more expensive than the Beach though. <grin>

Steve, except for the DXA-8 which has a preamp, BeachTeks are passive and have no circuitry to overload. They basically consist of the XLR connector, a transformer to unbalance and impedance match the signal, a potentiometer to pad it down, and the unbalanced mini output connector. The mic/line switch may select two different transformers, or add resistance, or both--I'm not sure.

Re-reading the info on their site, you're right. What threw me was they label the level controls as "gain" controls when in fact I guess they are actually variable attenuators. I usually think of "gain" as meaning amplification while attenuation is the opposite. My confusion.

First Pieces of equipment
 

Hey guys, again thanks for everything. Laugh, but it takes me about 4 - 6 hours to digest your comments, and even then I don't get it at 100%. But then again, progress takes time and being unemployed, I've got the time- not much money, but I got lots and lots of time.

Talking about this stuff is great, but I know I have to get my hands on the real equipment and play with it before I can effectively make use of your technical advice.

I'm gathering that my first purchase should be a Beachtek adaptor. Is this right?

You guys mentioned two. One is for the Cannon GL1/2- the DXA-4P and costs about $169 at BH Photo. The other is the DXA-8 and costs about $369 at BH Photo. That's a big difference in cost for a guy like me. However, I'm thinking ahead to what Fred said about losing a friend or a reputation over mistakes. I'd like to concentrate on making equipment decisions that are more forgiving of my future potential errors.

With that in mind, which of those two adaptors (if any) will be easier for me to use?

Along this line, Steve mentioned needing an additional adaptor to turn down the signal strength past what the GL1's built in attenuator will do. If this is neccessary, then what brand/model should I be looking for.

Continuing the Beachtek line of thought. Since its XLR and I don't have any XLR cables, I suppose I'm going to need some before I can actually experiment with the Beachtek. So what kind of cables should I get (lenght, balance/unbalance/ends)?

After I'm clear on this initial purchase, I want to ask about some other things, (iriver and lav mics), but this Beachtek thing and digesting your prior comment/advice should keep me busy for a bit.

By the way, Fred, that soundboard at the church you asked about? I have no idea. My father in law has the keys to the church. He tells me its ancient and only plays cassette tapes. But I just think it would be good practice for me to play and experiment with the new equipment over there. If I'm not careful, I might learn something.

Thanks again,
Scott

Scott, you're doing fine. It's a lot to digest but you're obviously sharp and your attitude is great. Frequent posters here love to talk about this stuff, and frankly sometimes we take it too far because, after all, it is a public forum and we like to show what we know. And sometimes we're making clearer in our own minds what we thought we already knew pretty well. I should probably speak for myself, but I know I've seen this in others too. Anyway, we all mean well. Having said all that I'll try to keep my input to simple useful chunks.

If I have a GL1 and $5000 to build with and I worry about audio, the next thing I get is a DXA-8. Then I'm equipped to confidently and properly use any mic I want now or in the future. I plug in a mic, turn on phantom power if the mic is the type that needs it, turn the knob until the indicator LED blinks dimly and fairly frequently then forget about sound and concentrate on shooting video. The Beach feeds a perfect audio level to the GL1, protected from loud sounds.

I buy two AT8202 in-line attenuators. Now the input of my DXA-8 can handle whatever signal level any sound board I encounter can dish out.

To prepare myself for the various output connector arrangements on various sound boards, I buy:

2 Hosa 1/4" TS (aka Phone) Male to RCA male cables, 3 to 5 feet long
1 Whirlwind EDB1 passive direct box, or equivalent
[with the foregoing, I can take stereo from a board with left and right unbalanced RCA "tape out" jacks, plug it into the two 1/4" jacks on one side of the direct box, then take a mono mix of the left and right signals out of the XLR connector on the other side of the box via XLR cable to my camera position]

1 Hosa 1/4" TRS (aka Stereo Phone) to XLR male cable, 3 to 5 feet long
[with that I can take the mono left and right mix from a balanced Mono Out 1/4" jack on boards like the very popular Mackies.]

I buy two 10', two 25' and one 50' length of XLR cable. and a simple mic stand with a boom.

BTW, I do personally have all of the above, except a GL2 vs. a GL1.

I buy a Sennheiser G2 wireless system for miking the officiater or podium, and an AT3031 cardioid to place unobtrusively on the stand pointing up at mouth level from between knee and hip level within a few feet to the left or right rear of the officiator (toward the audience). That gives me audience/ambience sound and BACKUP ceremony audio. It will also give me room coverage at the reception.

I buy a Rode VideoMic or equivalent to mount on my roving camera.

I buy a Sony VCT-87RM tripod with built in zoom controller on the handle. I know I'll buy a better (e.g., sturdier) tripod before long, but I'll never part with this one either because it's so light and convenient, with smooth pan and tilt movement. I buy a second tripod for the second cam, maybe another Sony, maybe a really good one with or without an add-on zoom controller.

I buy a second prosumer cam in lieu of or in addition to the inexpensive one you menitioned. First choice: Sony VX2100 for its leading low light ability. Second choice: a Canon GL2 for its additional features over the GL1, notably the manual audio controls. With or without an operator, this will give me another angle and BACKUP for video and audio.

Finally, before I click on "place order" at the B&H website, I drop in at the Wedding / Event Techniques forum and say something "hey, I have a GL1 and some money to spend, what should I get?" Nice crew over there too.

--
Fred

They serve slightly different purposes. The DXA-8 is a microphone preamplifier that couples professional quality microphones to your camera. Reading their manual (online at www.beachtek.com) it doesn't mention anything about accepting a line level input except on a left-channel only mini plug. The DXA-4p is an inline adapter and attentuator that will accept either mic or line level balanced inputs and it both unbalances them properly with a transformer and also attneuates the levels to what your camera needs without needing any more added. (I re-read the manual and it appears my earlier skepticism about input overload was unfounded.) If it were my bucks, the DXA-4p is what I'd go for. Not only is it cheaper, it's a better match for the job you have at hand at the moment since one of the key issues is adapting a high line level coming off the soundboard to a low mic level on the camera. The DXA-4p is purpose built to do exactly that. OTOH, when you get ready to put a really good professional microphone or two into use with your camera, the DXA-8 might be the way to go for that job since it gives you some things that would be good to have then, like phantom power, that the "4" doesn't. You'll probably eventually have both or something equivalent but for now, go for the DXA-4p.

As for cables - you need to know exactly what you're plugging into before you can make that determination and for length, well, you have to know how far away you're going to put the camera from the soundboard <grin> All you can say for sure without knowing about the soundboard is the end that plugs into the Beachtek will be an XLR male plug.

While you're ordering cables, don't forget to order a couple of rolls of gaffer's tape to tape the cable to the floor so people don't trip on it and pull your camera and tripod over. Gaffer's tape looks like duct tape but it's not quite the same thing and doesn't leave an adhesive residue on things like duct tape does.

That's right "gain" is a misnomer without amplification. I like the term "trim controls."

DXA-4P and ...
 

Hey guys, moving slower than I would like but I'm moving. I need to sell some stuff to get some more toys. But I did order the DXA-4P. And now, I'm wondering what cables to get for it. Fred mentioned some. I looked them up. But I'm not sure if he was thinking about the other Beachtek when he mentioned them.

Steve said something like, you gotta know what you're going to plug into first before you can get cables. I can just tell you that one end is going to be XLR Male.

Here is my silly confession for the day. I'm going to do goofy experiments when the Beachtek gets here (if I have the right connection cables). I don't have a sound studio in my house but I do have radios and sterios and other home music devices that have holes in them- you know, RCA jacks and speaker jacks. So I was thinking I might get an idea of how the Beachtek works if I can hook it up to things around the house.

So if you've stopped laughing yet, can I learn anything useful from this kind of experiment? If so, what kind of 10 foot cables can I get. Should I get one cable with several kinds of adaptors? Or an XLR Male to an end that will fit in my stereo's headphone jack (TRS 1/4 or TS 1/4?) Or an XLR Male to an RCA end? Do they make these kinds of cables?

If I understood you guys correctly and BH photos description of the DXA-4P, I can record two different sources to two different tracks.

If this is possible, and I'm thinking right. How do I use the Canon GL1 with the Rode Video Mic and DXA-4P and (some kind of XLR cable) to video my kid on the couch talking so that I get her speech plus CD sound from the stereo on two different track so I can practice with it in FCP3?

Oh yes, I feel silly...but I got to start some place.

Thanks,
Scott

Not at all silly, with a few caveats, I'm a big beleiver that experimenting is a good way to learn. DO NOT plug into a speaker output! That is even higher than line level, designed to drive the speakers, and it could damage the stereo, the Beachtek, your camera, or all three, so some caution is in order. A headphone out, OTOH, would be safe. It might still be too high to record without distortion but it's not likely to be so high as to damage anything.

A CD is stereo. Remember that is two tracks right there, a left channel and a right channel. The Beachtek and your camera also handles two tracks so the "two sources" they are referring to would be the two tracks of a single stereo CD player. You could use it with two microphones, one for an interviewer and the other on the subject of the interview, for example.

You Rode Video mic does not have an xlr output so you can't connect it to your Beach'y without adapters. It has a stereo mini jack just like the one on your camera and is designed to plug directly into the mic input on your camera without any adapters.

Here's how to do your baby on the sofa ... Use your Rode on the camera to record his conversation. Don't worry at all about the CD player. I'm not sure how the Rode connects - if it splits the signal to both the left and right channels or just connects to the left channel - but at any rate, all you record on the tape is the dialog and don't worry at all about the music. Then after you capture the tape into your computer for editing, use the CD drive in your computer to "rip" the audio tracks and import them into FCP alongside the tracks from the camera. Camera is not involved in capturing the music at all. I don't know FCP but if it's like Premiere or Vegas, the result will be one video track, one mono dialog track or maybe two identical mono dialog tracks depending on how the Rode feeds the camera, one music left channel track, and one music right channel track. Mix to your content in FCP.

The Home Stereo Experiment
 

Hey Steve, you're solution is right of course- about filming my kid with camera and Rode Mic and then adding a CD to Final Cut Pro. But I'm looking for a way to simulate the experience of video taping an event with room ambience/speech/vocals and soundboard music. It's the theory of 'if I practice by your self so you won't make a fool of your self with a crowd'.

I understand what you said about the camera having two tracks and the beachtek having two tracks and that stereo will take up both of them, but I could use it with two microphones (interviewer/interview subject).

But I'm still Okay because now I know what won't work.

So to perform my simulation/practice/experiment, I'm going to need what?- a second camera or an iRiver? And maybe something else, like a mic that plugs into the iRiver?

If we're going down the iRiver road, then I want to pause right here and ask, "What the heck is an iRiver?" I see it mentioned over and over in this forum, but the name is so vague. I bought a little iRiver for my kid for $78.00. And I don't think you guys are talking about my kid's toy. So what model should I look for? And I would need a mic to put in it, right? So what kind of Mic? From there I could see myself uploading it to my Mac and converting the file into an AIF for use in FCP.

And getting back to the headphone jack on my stereo. I would run a male XLR from the Beachtek to the Stereo using what?- 1/4 TRS or is it a TS? You've already told me that if I plug into the RCA jacks that I'll cause a problem. I think that's what you meant when you said not to plug into the speakers. And I would suppose Beachtek's mini would plug into my camera and the Rode Video Mic would watch this all happen safe in its box being unused. Am I thinking in the right direction?

To me, this seems like a practical simulation of a real life event. If I can do this then I can apply it to something bigger, I would think.

Thanks,
Scott

Ahhh - you didn't tell us before that you were recording from a microphone for the dialog and the sound board for the music. At least I didn't catch it if you did. I assumed you were picking up all the audio you'd be recording from the soundboard, including BOTH the music and all the dialog and other sound from the house mics. This changes things.

Okay, so you want to record the music in stereo and at the same time record the dialog of your kid on the sofa, all at the same time. We'll leave additional mics for an audience out of it for the moment and also disregard combining the stereo L/R into a single mono channel. You have three tracks of audio to deal with - music left, music right, and dialog mono from the mic. The camera records 2 tracks, your choice of either a left and right stereo pair or two mono tracks. So the immediate problem is how to fit those 3 tracks into 2. The desired result would be CD left->video left, CD right -> video right, dialog -> video left AND video right equally (Why? Because you want the kid's dialog to appear to be coming from his picture, centred on the screen, not off to one side or the other.) So you need to take the mono signal from the mic, split it equally into two parts, and mix one half with the music left, the other half with the music right, and lay the result down on tracks 1 and 2 respectively in the camera. And guess what tool splits and mixes audio like that? A mixer! To this job you'll need at least a 3in/2out mixer that can take the left and right stereo line level from the soundboard plus a mike level input from your microphone (probably something other than the Rode), mix them in the right proportions, and send them onward on their journey to your camera. The Beachy would then match the mixer's output to the camera. There are a LOT of mixers that could do the job, ranging from a Behringer MXB1002 (www.behringer.com/MXB1002/index.cfm?lang=ENG) at a bit over 100 bucks to pro quality gear like the Sound Devices 302 and 442 at about $1200 and $2500 respectively and you could even go higher. And there's lots of stuff in between, take your pick.

Behringer Mixer
 

Wow! Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for the Behringer link. I downloaded the manual and I'll give it a read. So if I'm to get this straight in my head, the mixer mixes the sound and sends it the Beachtek that sends it to the camera?

1) Do I need two sets of head phones, one for the camera and one for the mixer? Or am i mixing from the headphones hooked to the camera?

2) You said the Rode Video Mic might not work. Is that because I can't hook it to the camera's mini jack because the Beachtek is hooked up to the camera? Wouldn't I connect to the mixer instead?

3) Could I use the Rode Mic if I put it on a stand and connected it to the Beachtek (or the mixer?) with some kind of XLR adapter cable? If not the Rode, would I hook a more appropriate?

I'm starting to see this working in my living room. If I wanted to move beyond the living room, I suppose the mixer would be adjacent to the soundboard and the camera with Beachtek would also have to be close by. If this is the case, I would now have a microphone problem. Would this be solved by using wireless microphones? And if so, would they be connected to the mixer or to the Beachtek?

Thanks,
Scott

Don't take offense but you seem fixated on the cables you should use - you've got to get past that. <grin> The only purpose of the cable is to get the signal from one place to another, to connect one piece of equipment to the other, and the type of cable you need is dictated by the signal characterisitics - balanced or unbalanced, stereo or mono - and the connectors on that equipment. You get whatever cables match the equipment. So before even thinking about cables, you need to select the equipment that does whatever job you need done. You've got part of it - you've got the camera to record the audio (and of course the video). It needs signals that are unbalanced, and its input connector requires a mini-plug TRS with channel 1 on the tip and the sleeve and channel 2 on the ring and the sleeve. You've got the Rode video mike which delivers its output on a stereo mini-plug that can plug directly connect to the camera. Does just that pair do everything you need? Nope, because you need to also record music coming from a soundboard and audio from more than just one mic. Also, the Rode is still an on-camera mic and even though it's a good one, it's still has all the inherent disadvantages of a camera mounted microphone. For good audio you need to get the mic up close and personal with the talent. The Beachtek DXA-4p that you have on the way will do part of if, it will take a pair of signals from you choice of either two microphones, a stereo pair of signals from the soundboard, or one mono mic signal and one mono mixed L/R signal from the soundboard and send 1 of them to channel 1 on the camera and the other to channel 2 on the camera. But it only has 2 channels and there's no room for a microphone plus the left signal plus the right signal to plug into it. That requires 3 input connectors and the Beach'y only has 2. You could plug the Rode into the aux mini-jack on the Beach but that only feeds the camera's channel 1 and the Beach manual says you can't use the second XLR connector when you use the auxilliary on anyway so you're no farther along. So how CAN you combine a (mono) microphone, any microphone, with a stereo signal from the soundboard? You need a mixer to do that. Your mixer should have at least 2 outputs that will end up in channel 1 and channel 2 on the camera. The mixer will talk to the Beach which will talk to the camera. The Beach wants its inputs on XLR connectors so that's what that end of the cable will have. It also wants its input to be balanced so that what you'll feed it. Your mixer will very likely have balanced outputs and they might be on XLR connectors or they might be on 1/4" TRS connectors - so that end of the cable is whatever plugs into the mixer. Now what mixer do you need? Well, it will need at least 2 output channels 'cause that's what you need to send to the camera. Inputs? It can a few or a whole lot. You'll need 1 mic level input for EACH microphone you want to connect at any one time, 1 mono line level for each mono signal you want to connect, and 2 line level or 1 stereo pair line level for each stereo signal from the soundboard. What cables? Well, whatever connects your source device to the input on the mixer you want to feed it to.

To properly connect that soundboard to your mixer or to your Beachtek, whatever route you choose, you have to, simply have to, take a look at it and see what kind of output it has. Heck, it might even be mono! If it's a simple consumer stereo it might not even HAVE outputs you can connect to and the whole exercise is moot. Is it balanced or unbalanced, stereo or mono? If it's stereo is it one plug for both channels or two? XLR, 1/4 TRS, mini-TRS, RCA pins, binding posts, some combination of the above? You are dead in the water and simply cannot make a reasoned choice without that information. There's no single choice you can possibly make that you could be certain to work with all of the possible sound systems that it might be. Even your home experiment with your CD player, you have to look at the back and see what connectors are on it before you can do anything.

With a mixer to worry about you may well need a second person on your team, one of you on the camera and the other one on the mixer.

Wireless mics are an option but wired mics can work too, it depends on the scene. Will the person speaking be in more or less one spot or will they be running back and forth around the stage. You said it's a church - would it be a papal mass where the celebrant is glued to one spot or would it be a scene like James Brown's performance as the minister in the Blues Brothers movie? Your issues miking those two scenarios would be wildly different.

Taming the Cable Obsession
 

Hey Steve,
Obsessed with cables? I wasn't until I stumbled into this forum. I suppose I will have to get over my fear of having equipment I can't connect or connect on time. I live close to Atlanta. So even though I haven't found a place where I can get these obsessive cables and connectors on the fly, driving in my car, there is probably a place, so I will relax and focus on other other things. I was just thinking that I better get all the wire I might possibly need for any occassion when I purchased Beach. So you're saying if its a planned event, I have time to do some research on the facility's equipment and get what I need. And if its unplanned, screw on the Rode Mic and go for it. OK, I'll get on with my life now.

Keeping in tune with getting on with my life, I realize after reading your last reply that I'm not going to be great with sound on my first job. I have to put goals in perspective with my skill and my budget, do some shoots, learn on the job, make some money and buy what I need. That's cool and its really all I wanted to do. I just wanted to come up with a simple/basic set-up and plan that I could start with which would allow me to do an acceptable job on events such as weddings, recitals and plays.

I drew a picture of a wedding so I could envision what I could "get away with" using. I'd love to send it to you, but I'll try to describe it here. First of all I see a chapel with the alter in the front and the sound equipment in the back.

I'm going to explain my thought from the front (alter) to the back (sound room).

There is a raised stage. I assume the Paster, Groom, and Bride will be on the first step with the Best Man, Father, and Maid of Honor being close by. There are probably grooms men and Brides maids lining the sides.

iRiver Type with Mic on Groom
Cheap Canon Camera with Rode Video Mic deep on the stage on Manual Focus, either running or powered on by remote control, hopefully its hidden and obtrusive, camoflaged by plants.

And/Or (if camera on the stage is unnaceptable)

Good Mic on stand angled behind the pastor and couple feeding into a mini-disk recorder.

My Canon GL1 in the back corner with a Rode Video Mic, where I can get wide angle of the back of couples and catch them walking up and down the aile.

In the Sound Room there would be Soundboard connected to a Beachtek and Beachtek would connect to a mini-disk recorder with no camera. It would pick up music and maybe sound from the facilities microphones.

In the end, I would have video from one or two cameras and several sources of sound to pick, choose and mix from.

You may see lots of problems with this strategy. First of all, I don't even know what an iriver or mini disc recorder is or how much they cost. I don't know if they provide "good enough" sound.

I just want to start with something I can afford to do, learn how to do rather quickly, and would be acceptable to most customers.

Thanks,
Scott

1. They'll work with any BeachTek. It's actually the XLR cables I mentioned (10 foot, 25 foot, 50 foot) that plug into the BeachTek. The other end of the XLR cable connectors to those short adapter cables, and then they plug into the sound board. I picked ones that would have you ready to work with most sound boards out in the field. By the way, on that list I forgot to include that you should also get two 1/4" male phone (TS) to 1/4" male phone (TS).

2. The "direct box" is a device for changing a signal from unbalanced to balanced. It can also mix stereo down to mono because it has two 1/4" TS jacks wired to its XLR jack. It's handy. Sometimes you might need it in the field, other times not.

3. Since you chose the DXA-4p, you don't need the attenuators I mentioned.

4. That takes care of one channel. Now you need an XLR mic for the other channel. To convert the Rode VideoMic to XLR so you can plug it into the BeachTek, get this adaptor:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
You can get adaptors to convert anything to anything. It's not practical to get them all, so it makes sense to start with ones you definitely need and some that you're likely to need.

THAT's what I'm talkin' about :>)
With the odds and ends I mentioned you'd be ready for the road. Ready for weddings, recitals and plays. Also ready to experiment in your living room.

Scott, my advice is to can the iRiver/minidisc for now. You can do a very competent job without one.

Plan on your camera position being the nerve center for the setup. BeachTek mounted to the bottom of your GL1 (like it's designed for), mounted on a tripod located at a good distance and angle for the ceremony. Headphones connected to the GL1. Plugged into the BeachTek would be any two of the following:
1. Wireless from lavaliere mic placed on podium, groom or officiator
2. XLR cable running from mic placed to pick up ceremony audio and room sounds
3. XLR cable feed from sound board (good choice if the church has one set up for this purpose, but there often won't be one)

Place your second cam a tripod to run unattended at a second angle, also picking up sound.

There are people out there making money with less than the above. Later on you can make informed choices regarding a mixer to accept more inputs, more mics, standalone recorders, etc.

"Weddings, recitals, and plays" Oh My! <grin> Think about it a bit - the audio problems you need to solve for these three very different events are quite different. But regardless of the type of event and the microphones used, for good audio the mic simply must be close to the sound sources. Using a mic at what are normal lens to subject distances for the camera simply puts it too far away to pick up good quality sound except under very unusual circumstances. Even the advice you got to tie into the venue's soundboard that prompted the start of this thread was probably predicated on the assumption that they are going to be mic'ing the sources properly and so that work would have been done for you, plus picking up music using a mic in front of the house speakers usually gives pretty terrible results.

In a wedding you need the mics to be "up close and personal" to pick up the speech of the celebrant, the bride, and groom. You also might want audience reaction and hall ambience and some of the incidental music such as the processional and recessional during the ceremony. At the reception you're going to want to get the toasts, speeches, music during the dances, interviews with family and friends perhaps. During the preparations before and the reception after you'll be able to "get in their face" as much as is reasonable without being a pest but during the ceremony you're going to have to be back out of the spotlight. You can set up the camera in the back of the hall as you suggested and use long focal lengths to tighten the image but you simply won't be able to get good clear audio with a mic at that camera position, regardless of whether it's the built-in mic, the Rode Video Mic. or a $2000+ Schoeps, Sennheiser, or Sanken gem - the physics of acoustics is working against you. There's a lot of ways you might approach it - stand mikes, concealed lavs on the participants with wireless transmitters under their clothes, a handheld wireless in the hands of the celebrant, concealed lavs to minidisc recorders in their pockets, etc. But whatever you choose, the bottom line is get the mics within a very few feet of the people speaking.

For a recital, the music is the essential element. You won't have much speech to record but you'll need to mike the solo instruments or vocalists and/or the ensemble in as high a quality as possible. You need to think in terms of making a *music* recording with accompaning visuals rather than making a video per se. In my opinion, that means the audio in the camera is pretty much what is called a guide track or a scratch track, used as a reference to line up sync footage in editing but ultimately discarded. The actual sound intended for use in the final production is recorded double system on a quality digital recorder of some sort. You can edit video together shot at diffent times and create a continuity so you can start and stop the camera many times during the performance but the sound recording has to go continuously, without interruption, from the moment the music starts until the piece is over. That means of course that whatever is recording the sound must not be stopped during the performance or at least during any single number. OTOH, your picture might well cut from the performer to the audience reaction to a closeup of their hands on the instrument, that sort of thing, with lots of starts and stops during the shoot as the music plays continuously. Those two criteria tell me the only practical solution is to record picture and sound separately and marry them in post. So you need enough of the right mikes for the performers and their instruments (a rock group's drum kit alone might require between 3 to 7 different mikes) a mixer, a minimum of a good quality digital (mandatory!) stereo recorder if not a multitrack, and someone to work 'em while you do the photography.

For theatre there's yet another set of problems to solve. It's similar to the above in that it's takes place on a stage but different in that in weddings and recitals the subjects are relatively stationary while in a theatrical performance they are moving all over the place. Since you can't put a boom operator on the stage with them to follow them around unless you're shooting during rehersal, you need to either use concealed lavs on wireless, fly some mics suspended above the stage, or tie into the house sound if they're using a sound reinforcment system for the performances.

Keep It Simple
 

Scott, I agree with most everything Steve has been saying. I say "most" as a hedge because I haven't read it all.

But I've shot weddings, recitals, and plays--with and without sound boards present--with the equipment and approaches I've recommended. I use the DXA-8, but you'll be fine with the DXA-4p if you monitor with headphones carefully.

I applaud your instinct to rehearse in your living room, and to sketch out and visualize possible setups. Those are the habits of a pro. You're going to be fine. Don't get frustrated or overwhelmed, just get going.

Other than for the recital, I've only been suggesting adding a mixer a bit more strongly than does Fred because I've been assuming you want to record dialog from a mic plus the paired L/R channels of stereo music, whether the music is picked up by a stereo pair of mikes or fed from house sound, without mixing the music channels down to mono. Since both Beachteks mentioned at most provide only 2 active inputs at once and my assumptions of the recording goals require a minimum of 3 inputs (1 dialog, 2 music) if all three sources are going to be recorded at once in real time, I feel a mixer of some sort is going to be in order fairly soon (and at ~$100, something like the Behringer, if only to experiment with, is cheap enough to not be much of an issue). Aside from that, Fred and I are both on the same page.

Steve, you're right. It's just that I'd advise Scott to forget about preserving or setting up to capture true L&R stereo in the beginning. It's just not that important for most event recording, where the focus of the potential audience is its emotional attachment to the subject. Two mono tracks from two different feeds give a difference in content that can be played with in post to give some spaciousness to the sound. That plus the natural room reverb.

In the one case where I really wanted stereo from the board plus a third track for room ambience, I just used my second cam's audio for the third track and mixed it in post.

Hey Fred
 

[QUOTE=Fred Retread]THAT's what I'm talkin' about :>)
Plugged into the BeachTek would be any two of the following:
1. Wireless from lavaliere mic placed on podium, groom or officiator
2. XLR cable running from mic placed to pick up ceremony audio and room sounds
3. XLR cable feed from sound board (good choice if the church has one set up for this purpose, but there often won't be one)

Place your second cam a tripod to run unattended at a second angle, also picking up sound.

Hey Fred,
I wrote down every thing you told me about the first time about the equipment pieces. I got manufacturer codes and prices. I did pretty good except for when I got to the wireless mics. There were so many of them. I saw something like 29 versions of the Sennehouser G2. Any way, can you narrow it down for me?

Also, as far as the wireless is concerned, would your suggestion include some kind of receiver that plugs into the Beach?

On #2 (XLR cable from mic running to Beach) is that with the idea of using the AT3031 Cardioid Condenser Mic you mentioned earlier. Or is it for using the Rode Video Mic converted like you said in your last post (the one from the BH photo link)? Or is it for both (one or the other)?

From your suggestion, I can plug 2 out of 3 into the Beach. You felt the soundboard would be great if possible because it picks up all the music and vocals pre-mixed. But you felt the situation would be rare, so take it if I get it and add the wireless mic or wired mic to the Beach.

Thanks,
Scott

If all you had was the Rode, then you could use it instead of the AT3031 at the ceremony with the adapter cable, then mount it on a camera and use it without the adapter at the reception.

But if you get both, my choice would be to put the Rode on the second cam during the ceremony and set up the AT3031 with the XLR cable. That, plus two inputs to the Beach would give you backup on top of backup, plus lots of good stuff to mix in post.

After you done a few mixes, you'll have your own opinions on what's best.

The first priority is to get the vows. A lav does that best. So a lav on the podium, officiator or the groom is almost a must. If the house sound board includes that lav, it's my number one choice for feeding the Beach. Anything else it picks up is gravy.
The second feed would then be the AT3031 setup, because it will get very good audio of the vows plus room sounds.

If the board didn't have a lav feeding it, the wireless would be choice number one. The AT3031 would be my choice number two, even if the board carries the church music, chorus or whatever. Why? Because the 3031 is the best vows backup, and will also pick up the music (so will the second cam, and even the lav).

Some churches (and other venues, like theaters) have rules. So you might not always have the option for the AT3031 or even the second cam. One of the reasons a wireless is a standard part of a wedding kit is that they sometimes don't want you to run a wire. On the other hand you may have a very friendly church and/or church sound guy and be able to run the AT3031 into the sound board and run the sound board into your BeachTek with your wireless as the other feed. That would be nice.

You have to coordinate with a church official in advance as part of the plan, and you have to be flexible. But there's always more than one way to do it, and you'll be equipped to do most anything.

As far as the wireless itself, the outfit should include a lav, a transmitter and a receiver. If you're feeling rich, an option for more money is to also get a "plug on" transmitter (in addition to the regular pocket transmitter). This would allow you to get a feed from the AT3031 or a board without running XLR cable, but only if you weren't using the lav. The receiver is only good for one transmitter.