Synching to Clapper & Camera Audio Better than Synching to Timecode w/ Double System?

Dan Keaton · September 17th, 2007, 03:56 AM

Peter, I recommend that you consider the Ambient ACD-301 or ACD-301RF timecode slates. These are excellent units, I highly recommend them.

Jeff Mack · September 17th, 2007, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

You can jam synic (set another's timecode) to your 702t's master timecode clock in under ten seconds, and then disconnect the cable, or you can leave them connected.

Jamming timecode is not an end all. All camera's will drift over time. If you record a seperate audio track, syncing camera audio to it is rather easy. If there are timecode breaks, you can be even more thorough by syncing each segment.

Now sending a generated timecode to each camera is a different thing altogether. I just can't trust jammed timecode.

Jeff

Peter Moretti · September 17th, 2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

Peter, I recommend that you consider the Ambient ACD-301 or ACD-301RF timecode slates. These are excellent units, I highly recommend them.

Dan,

It's funny, I was going to ask for recommendations for timecode slates, but figured that a timecode slate is a timecode slate.

May I ask why you like Ambient over Denecke and do you use the RF feature?

P.S. Thanks everyone for the input. Until the timecode slate and recorder arrive, I'll be synching using a clapper and the camera's audio track, which seems to be pretty doable. Thanks again.

Steve House · September 17th, 2007, 12:45 PM

FYI - the normal practices are different for film and video. In film , the audio recorder is the master and a smart slate may be jammed from it. In video, the camera is usually the TC master and the audio recorder and slate are slaved from it. Camera and recorder set to Record Run, camera rolls before sound, sound calls speed when rolling and timecode is advancing. If the camera doesn't have TC in/out, the fallback would be film style.

Grayson L. Wideman · September 17th, 2007, 04:10 PM

On note:

If the take is a long one, over ten minutes, I think you should consider locking the word clock source to the master shot camera. If the video sync pulses and the word clock pulses are not derived from the same reference you can have them drift out of sync on long takes.

Grayson

Dan Keaton · September 17th, 2007, 07:28 PM

Dear Jeff,

I agree that jamming one time is not an "End All", just that it may be used and is very easy to do.

It is easy to run tests, if you own the equipment, to determine how long it will remain in sync.

I assisted in recording a three hour concert (music video) with three XL H1's.. There was no way that we could remain connected to the master timecode clock. So we jammed before the start and again at the intermission (about 90 minutes later). This worked well. The jamming process took less than 2 minutes, with most of the time spent walking to the cameras.

If you can remain connected, then you can use "Record Run". 24 Hour Free Run also works well when you can not remain connected.

Dear Peter,

There are many features built into the Ambient that I like, one being the built in RF Transmitter.

Regretfully, I am on vacation and do not have the Ambient slate manual with me, so I can not give a full explanation of all of the differences.

I like the fact that the Ambient slate has a method to determine if a camera, by itself, is keeping timecode accuractely. This same feature is also built into the Sound Devices 702t, 744t, etc.

I read the specifications on the TS-C and the ACD-302 and ACD-302RF on the B&H website this morning. I did note some differences between the units with the Ambient units having more features.

But most of all, I felt that having Ambient timecode circuity in the 702t, which is first class, would match up well with the Ambient slates.

I do not mean to knock the Denecke in any way, but I do feel that the Ambient has more features and is built very well. I like that it is specifically designed to use alkaline or recargable batteries. (It allows for either 8 or 9 batteries).

I also like the fact that the Ambient has a built in "Time of Day" clock. If you are using this as the master 24 hour timecode clock on the set, you can just power on the unit and the time of day will be automatically loaded into the 24 hour run timecode clock.

In addition, if I remember correctly, it will keep proper timecode sync even while you are changing the batteries (It has a small battery inside for this purpose).

Peter, I hope this helps. I did not have time to confirm all of the above before posting. I am more than pleased with the Ambient slates.

Peter Moretti · September 19th, 2007, 02:22 PM

Dan, THANKS and have a great vacation! :)

Steve Oakley · September 23rd, 2007, 06:31 PM

having been editing and shooting for 20 years my experiance is that TC on audio when you slate doesn't matter. unless you cut on a avid which can autosync video TC to Audio TC, you still have to engage in a manual process to align everything. the only difference is looking at the V and A TC numbers VS the visual slate close and the spike in the audio waveform. personally I can do visual sync so fast it doesn't matter. here is how I do in in FCP, and in most NLE's it should be the same

place video onto TL.
place Audio into TL
scan video for slate close frame, and leave the CTI there.
slide the audio so that the close spike aligns to the CTI
check play if you like
select both clips, Command-L to link, and done. I can do it faster then you can read this.

the other point is that all the small cameras that are out there don't have TC ports, meaning you have to visually slate.

Like wise visual TC from the slate and then trying to align the audio based on it takes longer then just using the waveform spike to align to the visual close. I've done enough of this so say once you do it a couple of times, you'll just fly along.

what the manuall method does prefer is good slating - that you call all slate takes and note them on the slate so you never have to guess which take goes with which one. this is the only area where TC is a little bit better, but that would just be forgiving sloppy production for not slatting properly.

another alternate is to run TC to a camera audio in, run it at about -20db, or for digital -32 or so. in post you connect a TC reader to the audio out of that channel but you do run the risc of bleed into the other audio channel. however, if its only a scratch or reference track, no big deal.

Peter Moretti · October 4th, 2007, 02:24 AM

I want thank all of you for the great responses and time put into them!

I decided on going with the timecode version, 702T. I will be using Avid's Xpress Pro, so tc synching is possible if everything is done correctly.

But more importantly, I feel the quality of the tc generator warranted the cost and having the ability to work with tc in some fashion or another will only improve my understanding.

THANKS AGAIN!

September 17th, 2007, 03:56 AM	#16
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Peter, I recommend that you consider the Ambient ACD-301 or ACD-301RF timecode slates. These are excellent units, I highly recommend them. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

September 17th, 2007, 12:45 PM	#19
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	FYI - the normal practices are different for film and video. In film , the audio recorder is the master and a smart slate may be jammed from it. In video, the camera is usually the TC master and the audio recorder and slate are slaved from it. Camera and recorder set to Record Run, camera rolls before sound, sound calls speed when rolling and timecode is advancing. If the camera doesn't have TC in/out, the fallback would be film style. __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

September 17th, 2007, 04:10 PM	#20
Grayson L. Wideman Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Honlululu, Hawaii Posts: 30	Sync for double systems On note: If the take is a long one, over ten minutes, I think you should consider locking the word clock source to the master shot camera. If the video sync pulses and the word clock pulses are not derived from the same reference you can have them drift out of sync on long takes. Grayson

September 17th, 2007, 07:28 PM	#21
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Jeff, I agree that jamming one time is not an "End All", just that it may be used and is very easy to do. It is easy to run tests, if you own the equipment, to determine how long it will remain in sync. I assisted in recording a three hour concert (music video) with three XL H1's.. There was no way that we could remain connected to the master timecode clock. So we jammed before the start and again at the intermission (about 90 minutes later). This worked well. The jamming process took less than 2 minutes, with most of the time spent walking to the cameras. If you can remain connected, then you can use "Record Run". 24 Hour Free Run also works well when you can not remain connected. Dear Peter, There are many features built into the Ambient that I like, one being the built in RF Transmitter. Regretfully, I am on vacation and do not have the Ambient slate manual with me, so I can not give a full explanation of all of the differences. I like the fact that the Ambient slate has a method to determine if a camera, by itself, is keeping timecode accuractely. This same feature is also built into the Sound Devices 702t, 744t, etc. I read the specifications on the TS-C and the ACD-302 and ACD-302RF on the B&H website this morning. I did note some differences between the units with the Ambient units having more features. But most of all, I felt that having Ambient timecode circuity in the 702t, which is first class, would match up well with the Ambient slates. I do not mean to knock the Denecke in any way, but I do feel that the Ambient has more features and is built very well. I like that it is specifically designed to use alkaline or recargable batteries. (It allows for either 8 or 9 batteries). I also like the fact that the Ambient has a built in "Time of Day" clock. If you are using this as the master 24 hour timecode clock on the set, you can just power on the unit and the time of day will be automatically loaded into the 24 hour run timecode clock. In addition, if I remember correctly, it will keep proper timecode sync even while you are changing the batteries (It has a small battery inside for this purpose). Peter, I hope this helps. I did not have time to confirm all of the above before posting. I am more than pleased with the Ambient slates. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

September 19th, 2007, 02:22 PM	#22
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Dan, THANKS and have a great vacation! :)

September 23rd, 2007, 06:31 PM	#23
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	having been editing and shooting for 20 years my experiance is that TC on audio when you slate doesn't matter. unless you cut on a avid which can autosync video TC to Audio TC, you still have to engage in a manual process to align everything. the only difference is looking at the V and A TC numbers VS the visual slate close and the spike in the audio waveform. personally I can do visual sync so fast it doesn't matter. here is how I do in in FCP, and in most NLE's it should be the same place video onto TL. place Audio into TL scan video for slate close frame, and leave the CTI there. slide the audio so that the close spike aligns to the CTI check play if you like select both clips, Command-L to link, and done. I can do it faster then you can read this. the other point is that all the small cameras that are out there don't have TC ports, meaning you have to visually slate. Like wise visual TC from the slate and then trying to align the audio based on it takes longer then just using the waveform spike to align to the visual close. I've done enough of this so say once you do it a couple of times, you'll just fly along. what the manuall method does prefer is good slating - that you call all slate takes and note them on the slate so you never have to guess which take goes with which one. this is the only area where TC is a little bit better, but that would just be forgiving sloppy production for not slatting properly. another alternate is to run TC to a camera audio in, run it at about -20db, or for digital -32 or so. in post you connect a TC reader to the audio out of that channel but you do run the risc of bleed into the other audio channel. however, if its only a scratch or reference track, no big deal.

October 4th, 2007, 02:24 AM	#24
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	I want thank all of you for the great responses and time put into them! I decided on going with the timecode version, 702T. I will be using Avid's Xpress Pro, so tc synching is possible if everything is done correctly. But more importantly, I feel the quality of the tc generator warranted the cost and having the ability to work with tc in some fashion or another will only improve my understanding. THANKS AGAIN!