Picture Profile Recipes

[Jay Gladwell]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

I don't understand this surely the cameras are made from the same bits?

Just the nature of the beast. No two cameras ever made are "exactly" alike. Too many variables from the first element of the lens to the sensor at the back end.

As I said in an earlier post, that is why we have video engineers, so they can "match" the cameras prior o the shoot. In film, it's done at the lab with what's called a "color timer."

[Mark David Williams]

Originally Posted by Jay Gladwell

As I said in an earlier post, that is why we have video engineers, so they can "match" the cameras prior o the shoot.

Yes video engineers match cameras of different makes but not the same model? Just make sure all the settings are the same should be sufficient.

[Bill Ravens]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Yes video engineers match cameras of different makes but not the same model? Just make sure all the settings are the same should be sufficient.

Unfortunately, this is not true. In engineering parlance, variations are called "manufacturing tolerances". Manufacturers establish tolerances, usually looser than what the designers wanted. The main reason is money. The tighter the manufacturing acceptance tolerance, the more expensive it is to produce. For a company like Sony, that is so profit driven, if they can squeek it out the door, they will. The EX1 is a perfect example of a consumer product that relies on a hi-end reputation(ie cinealta) to sell a moderate to low end product. It's ALL about marketting. Just turn on the TV. I'm sure that a $100k camera gets a little more final inspect and adjustment than a $6k camera.

Sony produces these things in a mass production assembly line. They spend very little on final QA. The best thing you could do for your cam is send it to a factory service center where it will receive some personal attention from a tech. Given the workload Sony techs are probably having with firmware upgrades, this is probably not a good time for some "custom" service from Sony Repair centers.

On a good note, at least manufacturers like Sony now sell their products with a range of adjustments that allows a knowledgable owner to perform his/her own final QA and adjustment. Unfortunately, things like optical alignment are still out of scope for Joe Sixpack.

[Jay Gladwell]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Yes video engineers match cameras of different makes but not the same model? Just make sure all the settings are the same should be sufficient.

Nope, that's not the way it works.

I've watched a number of times as video engineers have "matched" multiple cameras of the same make and model. As I said above, that's the nature of the beast.

Edit: Just like Bill points point out!

[Kenny Cowburn]

Hey all you EX3 shooters out there

just a word to the wise
I personally don´t recommend using any EX1 pp´s for the EX3, after testing Bill Ravens´ settings for true colour (EX1) in my EX3, I noticed that the red spectrum was very flat and had moved to orange, this however was after Bill revised his first pp to accomodate the fact that many of you said that the reds were a bit too much as apposed to the other colours.

The EX3 test in the October/November issue of the ´VIDEOAKTIV DIGITAL`which is an European magazine which I buy (VIDEOAKTIV - Home) stated that sony should frame the results for the colour tests for the EX3, which kind of leads me to believe that we are getting very close to true colour without tweaking at all

I am not testing with any official charts, just with a colour circle from a photography book I have and real scenes outdoors in all possible conditions.

I did check the results in the Vectorscope in my Avid Liquid, which confirmed what the viewfinder in the EX3 had led me to believe.

Now while I think that a true colour PP is definately a good thing, I also think that PP´s should be adjusted continually to achieve the desired effect for the shot or shoot, it is all about creativity and personal prefference.

Not sure who it was in this thread who stated that there is no "holy grail" as far as picture profiles are concerned, but you got my vote.
Every one of us is shooting in different lighting conditions and we should react according to the situation at hand.

I personally shoot mostly extreme sports and events which pretty much always happen outdoors and am currently testing certain parameters for Sunshine; Backlight; Rain/cloudy; snow/sunny combination and snow/cloudy combinations.

For live band shoots, I will be looking into an indoor stage, mixed light setting over the next few months, if anyone has any good advise for that, I´d be pleased to hear it
(EX3 users please).

I have had my EX3 for about 4 weeks now and am very happy with the results so far, I have also done lots of work with the EX1 this year, although I wasn´t too sure about the handling at first, I said right then and there that I couldn´t wait to see what sony would do with the next modell, which I ended up buying just as soon as I could.
I have worked with the EX1 on 2 separate rallye´s Erzberg Hare Scramble/RodeoExtremely hot and dusty) and the Red Bull Romaniacs (everything from hot and dusty to mega rainy and cold) (Home), as well as the whole of last winter doing snow sports events(down to -25°c), these cameras are as tough as nails and are just soo much camera for the money spent(thanks SONY for a great cam.).
Just don´t throw them down rock faces, they don´t like that at all. I watched one go sailing down on the first day of shooting the Romaniacs this year it ended up in 3 pieces....

Bill Ravens, could you please get hold of an EX3 and let us know what your testing equipment thinks about the colours (o;

[Thomas William Alexander]

I have been working with the EX1 since June when our church purchased one for the purpose of internet use. At first I thought the picture provided by the factory was pretty good until I noticed that the greys and blacks had a lot of red in them under our Parr 46 and 54 tungsten stage lights. Last saturday I spent about two hours tweeking the settings in the PP to see what I could do. Here is what I came up with.

Matrix = Cinema
Level -40
Phase +20
RG -30
RB +30
GR +75
GB -60
BR +99
BG +80

White = 2900
Skin tone = Off
Black -20
Black Gamma -30
Low Key Sat -30


If annyone would like to see my results go to.... Welcome to Christian Worship Center

Push Media then...
Push Video in the white letters above the box.

sermon title to the right of the screen "Baggage"

Hit F11 key to enlarg picture.

[Thomas William Alexander]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

George,

Here is a sample shot with that RC1 profile you posted.

It was shot through the not-so-clean window of my office which overlooks the lounge area outside the building.

What is the white ballance setting for that shot Perrone?


Tom

[Michael Maier]

Originally Posted by Thomas William Alexander

I have been working with the EX1 since June when our church purchased one for the purpose of internet use. At first I thought the picture provided by the factory was pretty good until I noticed that the greys and blacks had a lot of red in them under our Parr 46 and 54 tungsten stage lights. Last saturday I spent about two hours tweeking the settings in the PP to see what I could do. Here is what I came up with.

Matrix = Cinema
Level -40
Phase +20
RG -30
RB +30
GR +75
GB -60
BR +99
BG +80

White = 2900
Skin tone = Off
Black -20
Black Gamma -30
Low Key Sat -30


If annyone would like to see my results go to.... Welcome to Christian Worship Center

Push Media then...
Push Video in the white letters above the box.

sermon title to the right of the screen "Baggage"

Hit F11 key to enlarg picture.

Yeah I have also found that shooting with a lower white balance like 2900 produces cleaner blacks and avoid the IR problem. But it creates another problem which is skin tones changing towards magenta.

[Perrone Ford]

Good gracious. That was months ago and I certainly don't remember.

Originally Posted by Thomas William Alexander

What is the white ballance setting for that shot Perrone?


Tom

[Thomas William Alexander]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

Yeah I have also found that shooting with a lower white balance like 2900 produces cleaner blacks and avoid the IR problem. But it creates another problem which is skin tones changing towards magenta.

There is one more thing that I forgot on that list of settings. I put Gamma level at -40 and CIN setting to CIN2. This setting also really looks good under normal houshold tungsten lighting.
I was just checking it out today and I thought the colors in the house, walls, furniture and skin tones looked really good. I am talking about multibles of 60 WATT bulbs. With that low of WATTS you might want to set the CIN setting to CIN3.

By the way did you look at the video and what did you think of the picture coloring?

[Chris Leong]

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

The EX1 is a perfect example of a consumer product that relies on a hi-end reputation(ie cinealta) to sell a moderate to low end product.

Sony produces these things in a mass production assembly line. They spend very little on final QA.

Bill, I thought the EX1s were off CineAlta assembly line in Atsugi?

Quote from a review:
"Moreover, this is the first palm-held camcorder to emerge from Sony’s Atsugi, Japan, factory, renowned for its Digital Betacam, HDCAM, HDW-F900, HDC-F950, and F23 lines. Previous Handycam-style camcorders have come from Sony’s factory at Shinagawa, Japan, creator of consumer and prosumer camcorders such as DSR-PD170s, HVR-A1Us, and HVR-Z1Us. As a result, present and future XDCAM EX camcorders will carry a CineAlta marque on the outside and Atsugi DNA on the inside."

Not that that necessarily means very much, but it ought to stand for something, right?

[Thomas William Alexander]

Originally Posted by Les Nagy

I am beginning to believe that picture profiles made for one camera will not necessarily translate to the same look or output on another camera. I am still working on profiles for my EX3 using a DSC chart and then working with real life scenes. It certainly looks like my camera requires different settings than Bill has used to set his to proper colour reproduction.

I am using Premiere Pro CS4 to get its On Location but Adobe has made changes to the latest version in their great wisdom that removes the ability to scale vector waveforms. Without this ability to scale, it becomes much more difficult to adjust the colour matrix to match correct reproduction using the DSC charts. It is not impossible though.

I am noticing that different gammas have different apparent detail and colour mapping at zeroed settings.

This will take some time to fully understand all the interactions but I will post my profiles this next week as I have them developed so far.

You also have to remember what the guy on the Vortex Video said (if you have the video)
concerning Picture Profiles. That they are based on personal prefrence. What looks good to one person may not look good to another unless there are truly difrences in each individual cammera manufactured.

[Bill Ravens]

Originally Posted by Chris Leong

Bill, I thought the EX1s were off CineAlta assembly line in Atsugi?
Not that that necessarily means very much, but it ought to stand for something, right?

why would you think that? history is full of poor products, sold under the reputation of better made designs, the BMW 325i. Porsche 914, and Ford Falcon all come to mind.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

why would you think that? history is full of poor products, sold under the reputation of better made designs, the BMW 325i. Porsche 914, and Ford Falcon all come to mind.

Hey Bill, now you have offended me. Is my BMW 330i I'm so proud of in this category?

[kidding off]

:)

[Chris Leong]

Hey Bill, I dunno. Misguided loyalty, I guess.
FWIW my own EX1, a late model example, arrived with nary a twitch - no vignetting, back focus, battery, etc issues, 1.11 installed, everything is working as advertised. So I for one don't think that my EX1 is akin to a Porsche 914 of the Sony line...