Picture Profile Recipes

George Strother · June 28th, 2008, 11:04 AM

You might try Veescope Live. http://www.dvdxdv.com/ I have tested the free demo and it seems to work as advertised.

If you have a Kona or similar capture device it will display whatever your device will capture from HD-SDI to composite plus Firewire and matches my hardware scopes.

Monitor and scope display has about a one second delay.

Michael Maier · June 28th, 2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Strother

You might try Veescope Live. http://www.dvdxdv.com/ I have tested the free demo and it seems to work as advertised.

If you have a Kona or similar capture device it will display whatever your device will capture from HD-SDI to composite plus Firewire and matches my hardware scopes.

Monitor and scope display has about a one second delay.

Did you test it to be accurate with the EX1 also when using firewire or just SDI?

George Strother · June 29th, 2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

Did you test it to be accurate with the EX1 also when using firewire or just SDI?

HD-SDI, component and Firewire. All matched within readability of the screens. The screen is less sharp on Veescope.

Michael Maier · July 2nd, 2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Strother

HD-SDI, component and Firewire. All matched within readability of the screens. The screen is less sharp on Veescope.

I'm only interested in the scopes function as I can't always have hardware scopes out on the field. But if using firewire to connect to the laptop, I would think you would have to switch the EX1 to SQ ("HDV") mode in order to work with the firewire? In that case, if what you are shooting is HQ, will checking the scopes in SQ still give an accurate representation of your signal? The question goes for both Veescope Live and Onlocation by the way.
The problem with Veescope Live is that it is Mac only and my Laptop is a windows machine, so Onlocation may be the only option. I may have to buy Premiere just to get Onlocation. Or is there another option for the PC?
Just making sure before I buy anything. Thanks.

Lonnie Bell · July 2nd, 2008, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

But if using firewire to connect to the laptop, I would think you would have to switch the EX1 to SQ ("HDV") mode in order to work with the firewire? In that case, if what you are shooting is HQ, will checking the scopes in SQ still give an accurate representation of your signal?

Michael, I also would love to hear feedback on your question as well...

Bill Ravens · July 2nd, 2008, 08:13 AM

FWIW...

HDRACK(which I assume is the same for Adobe's version), distinguishes REC601 from Rec709. Unlike Vegas, which never tells you WHAT it's reading, HDRACK will annunciate the color space it's reading. I would assume there's no difference in color space between SQ and HQ modes with the EX1. Simply a matter of higher bitrate doesn't mean a change to the color mapping.

Whether you like the results, or not, the color profile I posted here was done with HDRACK and the firewire connection in SQ mode. Applied to HQ modes yields the same results. Fairly convincing, altho' perhaps not conclusive, evidence that it's accurate enough.

Michael Maier · July 2nd, 2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

FWIW...

HDRACK(which I assume is the same for Adobe's version), distinguishes REC601 from Rec709. Unlike Vegas, which never tells you WHAT it's reading, HDRACK will annunciate the color space it's reading. I would assume there's no difference in color space between SQ and HQ modes with the EX1. Simply a matter of higher bitrate doesn't mean a change to the color mapping.

Whether you like the results, or not, the color profile I posted here was done with HDRACK and the firewire connection in SQ mode. Applied to HQ modes yields the same results. Fairly convincing, altho' perhaps not conclusive, evidence that it's accurate enough.

This is somewhat good news then. So switch to SQ, check on DV Rack, switch back to HQ and record. Sounds like a worthy workaround to me.

What version of DV Rack did you use Bill, DV RACK HD 2.0? I hear CS3 has some improvements.

If only DV Rack was still available as a stand alone option.
Is there another option for the PC?
Thanks.

Lonnie Bell · July 2nd, 2008, 09:45 AM

Bill,
Allow me to expand the question out of the EX1 slightly...

if using scopes with a downconverted SD signal for color checks, is there enough of a color space difference to warrant this as not a good idea if recording in an HD mode whether HDV or HQ, or would it be fairly accurate? (applying this question to the broader range of HD cams - like the XHA1 for example in addition to the EX1...)

Thanks,
Lonnie

George Strother · July 2nd, 2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

I'm only interested in the scopes function as I can't always have hardware scopes out on the field. But if using firewire to connect to the laptop, I would think you would have to switch the EX1 to SQ ("HDV") mode in order to work with the firewire? In that case, if what you are shooting is HQ, will checking the scopes in SQ still give an accurate representation of your signal? The question goes for both Veescope Live and Onlocation by the way.
The problem with Veescope Live is that it is Mac only and my Laptop is a windows machine, so Onlocation may be the only option. I may have to buy Premiere just to get Onlocation. Or is there another option for the PC?
Just making sure before I buy anything. Thanks.

I have only tested with the free demo of Veescope.

Within the readability of the scope image on my Mac/Dell 30 - HD-SDI, firewire, component HD and composite SD all seemed to match the hardware scopes. Veescope seemed to adapt to the changing color space. All of the computer screen scopes I have seen or used make an image that is less sharp than hardware scopes. Comparing requires estimating whether the "center" of a small fuzzy blob is in the same spot as a sharp dot. If you really need to know within 1 IRE, buy hardware scopes.

After a brief scope test my 3 week old EX1 failed. The IS system went into uncontrolled vertical cycling. Sony tried a repair that did not work and has it back to try again. No word on when it might come back. I had the camera 3 weeks, Sony has had it for 6 weeks. So I can't recheck anything.

Answering Lonnie's question, the EX1 appears to correctly translate from 709 to 601 for an SD monitor feed. If the SD feed was correct on SD scopes, the HD signal was correct on HD scopes, until the camera blew up.

Sorry, I only got a couple of hours of scope testing and color calibration before the camera fell apart.

George Strother · July 11th, 2008, 07:59 PM

Here is a new PP matrix settings for you to try.

I have tried as much as possible for max saturation while centering the vector angles.

This was produced with the same technique as Bill used for his TC PPs - DSC Labs chart, color correct lighting, HD-SDI to hard and soft scopes, but I got a different set of numbers. These profiles look more balanced on my camera, they may look less so on yours.

I have called these Real Color 1 and Real Color 2. RC1 is very close to total saturation, with just a tiny bit of head room. RC2 is right on the mark for 50% bars, no head room at all. If you find you are sometimes clipping colors even with RC1, try setting Matrix Level to -10.

If you give these a try, let me know how they work for you.

Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Level..................RC1 0 / RC2 +10
Phase.................3
R-G...................72
R-B...................-5
G-R...................-1
G-B...................23
B-R...................13
B-G...................-29

I have attached a jpg of RC2 on FCP scopes. FCP live scopes show the HD signal as SD colors pace, but this also looks correct on other hard and soft scopes.

The yellow circle marks 63%, the correct max for Red and Green on 75% scope and 50% bars, when viewed as NTSC color space.

I would have posted these a month and a half ago, but my camera failed while I was creating these profiles and I just got it back from Sony. I needed at least a brief chance to test them in the real world before posting.

Ronn Kilby · July 12th, 2008, 08:28 AM

Hey George - glad to hear your camera's back! Any idea what it was?

Paul Kellett · July 12th, 2008, 09:21 AM

George.
Which gamma did you use with these settings ?
Thanks.
Paul.

Carroll Lam · July 12th, 2008, 09:44 AM

And Black and Black Gamma?

Carroll Lam

George Strother · July 12th, 2008, 12:17 PM

Real Color Matrix Profile - This is only a Matrix profile for balanced saturated color. Set everything else where you wish for the scene you are shooting.

Gamma: Std 1-4 and Cine 1-4 all maintain the vector axis and gain is barely changed after the exposure is corrected for the gamma change.

Black gamma also has minimum or no change, after setting exposure. Same with knee.

Low Key Sat WILL change the vectors (it IS a saturation control) but mostly above or below + or - 10. Using + or - 99 will make some very weird colors.

I have attached a jpg of the Sony standard matrix for comparison. Notice that it is very low saturation and the yellow, green and blue vectors do not align with their vector targets. Just like pictures taken with the standard profile look on a calibrated production monitor.

George Strother · July 12th, 2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronn Kilby

Hey George - glad to here your camera's back! Any idea what it was?

Ronn - This time they put on an actual NEW lens. I've only tested it for a couple of hours, but everything seems to be OK.

btw - let me know how the RC matrix settings look on your camera.

July 2nd, 2008, 09:45 AM	#308
Lonnie Bell Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas, NV United States Posts: 361	Bill, Allow me to expand the question out of the EX1 slightly... if using scopes with a downconverted SD signal for color checks, is there enough of a color space difference to warrant this as not a good idea if recording in an HD mode whether HDV or HQ, or would it be fairly accurate? (applying this question to the broader range of HD cams - like the XHA1 for example in addition to the EX1...) Thanks, Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Bell mamas boy productions Las Vegas, NV

July 11th, 2008, 07:59 PM	#310
George Strother Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 204	Real Color Picture Profile Here is a new PP matrix settings for you to try. I have tried as much as possible for max saturation while centering the vector angles. This was produced with the same technique as Bill used for his TC PPs - DSC Labs chart, color correct lighting, HD-SDI to hard and soft scopes, but I got a different set of numbers. These profiles look more balanced on my camera, they may look less so on yours. I have called these Real Color 1 and Real Color 2. RC1 is very close to total saturation, with just a tiny bit of head room. RC2 is right on the mark for 50% bars, no head room at all. If you find you are sometimes clipping colors even with RC1, try setting Matrix Level to -10. If you give these a try, let me know how they work for you. Matrix ...............on Select................hisat Level..................RC1 0 / RC2 +10 Phase.................3 R-G...................72 R-B...................-5 G-R...................-1 G-B...................23 B-R...................13 B-G...................-29 I have attached a jpg of RC2 on FCP scopes. FCP live scopes show the HD signal as SD colors pace, but this also looks correct on other hard and soft scopes. The yellow circle marks 63%, the correct max for Red and Green on 75% scope and 50% bars, when viewed as NTSC color space. I would have posted these a month and a half ago, but my camera failed while I was creating these profiles and I just got it back from Sony. I needed at least a brief chance to test them in the real world before posting. Attached Thumbnails

July 12th, 2008, 08:28 AM	#311
Ronn Kilby Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Fletcher Hills, CA Posts: 211	Hey George - glad to hear your camera's back! Any idea what it was? Last edited by Ronn Kilby; July 13th, 2008 at 08:16 AM.

July 12th, 2008, 09:21 AM	#312
Paul Kellett Trustee Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol UK Posts: 1,273	George. Which gamma did you use with these settings ? Thanks. Paul. __________________ Round 2 GH5,FZ2000

July 12th, 2008, 12:17 PM	#314
George Strother Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 204	Real Color Matrix Profile - This is only a Matrix profile for balanced saturated color. Set everything else where you wish for the scene you are shooting. Gamma: Std 1-4 and Cine 1-4 all maintain the vector axis and gain is barely changed after the exposure is corrected for the gamma change. Black gamma also has minimum or no change, after setting exposure. Same with knee. Low Key Sat WILL change the vectors (it IS a saturation control) but mostly above or below + or - 10. Using + or - 99 will make some very weird colors. I have attached a jpg of the Sony standard matrix for comparison. Notice that it is very low saturation and the yellow, green and blue vectors do not align with their vector targets. Just like pictures taken with the standard profile look on a calibrated production monitor. Attached Thumbnails

June 28th, 2008, 11:04 AM	#301
George Strother Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 204	You might try Veescope Live. http://www.dvdxdv.com/ I have tested the free demo and it seems to work as advertised. If you have a Kona or similar capture device it will display whatever your device will capture from HD-SDI to composite plus Firewire and matches my hardware scopes. Monitor and scope display has about a one second delay.

July 2nd, 2008, 08:13 AM	#306
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	FWIW... HDRACK(which I assume is the same for Adobe's version), distinguishes REC601 from Rec709. Unlike Vegas, which never tells you WHAT it's reading, HDRACK will annunciate the color space it's reading. I would assume there's no difference in color space between SQ and HQ modes with the EX1. Simply a matter of higher bitrate doesn't mean a change to the color mapping. Whether you like the results, or not, the color profile I posted here was done with HDRACK and the firewire connection in SQ mode. Applied to HQ modes yields the same results. Fairly convincing, altho' perhaps not conclusive, evidence that it's accurate enough.

July 12th, 2008, 09:44 AM	#313
Carroll Lam Contributor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 128	And Black and Black Gamma? Carroll Lam