Please help me build a wireless video system. at DVinfo.net

Steven Digges · October 4th, 2016, 12:28 AM

I am going to build a wireless camera system for a client that has been with me for fifteen years. He is a dental surgeon. The work flow goes like this. I need a small lightweight HD camera, 4K is not needed. A mirrorless camera light enough to clamp to the articulating dental light with a Manfrotto Magic Arm would be ideal. I will use a Teradek or Camera Motion Research wireless transmitter to send the live video image from the operatory to a conference room next door to the operatory. The video will be received for viewing on a 65” class LCD monitor, or whatever I decide upon.

The audience viewing the monitor will be a maximum of fifteen dentists watching the live surgery for training purposes. I am well versed in projection systems but don’t want to use projection. Considering the small audience size I think I will be far better off with a monitor of 65” or bigger. The monitor will be used for PowerPoint slides as often as the live video.

The camera (or possibly two): I am not up to date on small video cameras, I am still a big camera shooter so I need some help here. The primary role of the camera will be to shoot into the mouth of the patient so the students can see the details of the surgery. I have been there myself and recorded this type of surgery. Light is not a problem, there is lots of it with the primary source being tungsten. The biggest issue is the almost macro conditions. I don’t need to single out an individual tooth but let’s say the subject is the inside of a mouth filling the screen. If I add a second camera that will be for a wide shot showing the doctor sitting next to the patient. The shot into the mouth is the priority. If I can mount the camera on the dental light the distance will be approximately 16 to 24 inches from the mouth. To avoid recording limits and overheating I will put an external recorder in the signal flow. The camera MUST have a clean live view with a HDMI output that does NOT time out. That is critical for this scenario. These sessions will be recorded but the live view is just as important.

I am not considering streaming the image into the conference room. I will only be there for the first seminar and after that the Doctor will be on his own. I need this system to be simple and a high quality image. A HD image of 720 x 1280 will be fine.

For the sake of image transmission safety I am planning on getting a stand for the transmitter and a 30 foot HDMI cable in case the transmitter needs to be moved closer to the receiver. Obviously I am worried about the wall between the two rooms. The actual distance between the closest operatory and the conference room is about 50 feet. But he may want to use other rooms.

I am all ears for solutions here. Small cameras and big monitors, not to mention wireless video transmitting are not my specialty.

In addition to Teradeck I am looking into transmitters from the good folks at Camera Motion Research. I have had dealings with them in the past and they are awesome to deal with. They are my first choice if the specs work out.

My budget is not unlimited but it is what it will take to make this work. I will spec it out and the Doctor will say go or no go. I know him well, if I can keep it reasonable enough he will go for it.

One more thing, this dental office is in another state than I live in. I will be ordering everything in advance to be delivered to his office. I MUST nail every piece and part I need for the installation!

Kind Regards,

Steve

Dave Blackhurst · October 5th, 2016, 01:27 PM

My first thought is stay at 1920x1080 or above, especially with that large a screen - nothing worse than low resolution on a big screen, IMO... fuzzy is fuzzy....

Is there going to be a weight limit on that swing arm light, that would be one potential issue - those sorts of things are probably set up for a certain amount of weight, and adding another mass on the "lever" could be a problem?

The other thing is the camera will need an A/C adapter, methinks - won't want to mess with batteries, so I'd think an adapter for power would be mandatory. That ruled out my first thought, which was the little Sony RX100M3 or M4, with the video clip length hack (might not need the hack for HDMI out as you've described, but...)... and my other suggestions run into that weight thing!

Edward Carlson · October 5th, 2016, 03:08 PM

Why does it need to be wireless? There are more complications with a wireless transmission than with a simple (and less expensive) cable solution.

If your camera has HDMI, you are limited to about 100ft of cable. You can squeeze more out of it with an amplified cable, but I've had varied success with them. I think your best option is to do everything over HD-SDI. Either get a camera with HD-SDI, or get an HDMI to SDI converter. On the TV end, an AJA Hi5 or a Blackmagic Micro Converter will turn the signal back into HDMI. The Micro converters are nice because they are powered over USB, which most TVs have these days, so it's one less power plug to deal with. You can make a very clean install with some dual-lock tape and appropriately sized USB and HDMI cables.

I really want to suggest the mini cameras from Marshall, but they all have manual-focus lenses. I assume the doctor will want auto-focus so he doesn't have to mess with the camera during a procedure.

Look at JVC cameras. They are a very good value for the money. The HM200 has a removable handle, so you can make it pretty compact.

Donald McPherson · October 5th, 2016, 11:50 PM

Heres my suggestion. Gopro 3+ camera. (if that's too wide an angle you get a kit to put on for different lenses). or other suitable camera with HDMI
HDMI cable and USB cable to power the Gopro.
HDMI TV transmitter / reciever. You can get them for under £300.
(Strange but the one I bought has the protect system built in when I streamed to my laptop via HDMI USB convertor. So solution was to buy a cheap and I mean cheap £8 HDMI splitter from Ebay)
And maybe one of those magic arms.

Steven Digges · October 7th, 2016, 03:08 PM

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

Right now the camera looks like it will be the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 II. I know the is a mark3 and a M4 was just announced but the M2 is better suited for my specs.

Does anyone have input on this camera? When shooting in plain old 1080P 30 AVCHD does it have overheating issues?

I am still looking at huge monitors and wireless transmitters. His first seminar is booked but others that will follow are not set yet. I may try to talk him into a cable for the first one but he really wants wireless. I am concerned about distances and walls.

Steve

Edward Carlson · October 7th, 2016, 03:23 PM

I really want to dissuade you from that camera. It has Micro HDMI, which after a few plug/unplug cycles is going to get worn out and break. Regular HDMI isn't very robust, Micro HDMI even less so. Especially considering these people are doctors and nurses, not video engineers.

The RX10 also has a 29 minute video recording limit.

For the same price ($1,295) you can get a JVC HM170 which has no recording limit (up to whatever size your memory card is.) Or for $1,880 you can get a JVC HM200, which adds HD-SDI output.

Steven Digges · October 7th, 2016, 04:02 PM

Hi Edward,

I hear you about the small HDMI connection. I am not crazy about that ether. The 29 min limit is not a problem as long as there is no overheating. A cool down period can not happen.

Size and weight are critical for this job. I have been to this office and shot surgery myself. I did it by hovering a semi shoulder mount camera over them on a jib. There really is no "good place" to mount a camera the Doctor can run himself. The JVCs have several good points over the RX10 but they are almost twice the size and weight. To much so I think.

Steve

Dave Blackhurst · October 7th, 2016, 06:20 PM

OK, let's throw a curveball at you.... the RX10M2 ALREADY HAS WIRELESS BUILT IN (WiFi and NFC)! All you'd need is the app, and maybe something like the Chromecast to connect to an external "monitor" - there is a delay, but that shouldn't be an issue? I don't know how the video quality would be on a huge screen, but I've got all the bits sitting here, and will try it with the M2, chromecast and a 40"4K TV and see if it sucks or not.... I think I'll have to have an Android device in there to "cast", as the TV isn't a "smart" one...

You don't need to go to the M3, in fact it would be wrong for your application, it's bigger and heavier (that 600mm lens is not needed unless you're shooting the surgery half a block away....). You're probably thinking of the RX100 when you mentioned a M4 (the M5 was announced yesterday...), and it might do what you need, it just doesn't have much lens range (24-70mm), and the little battery would become an issue in longer surgery situations, IMO. There is a little nearly invisible flap on the battery door that's clearly for an external cable/adapter, but I have no idea about availability.... I know that there have been battery shaped A/C adapters, and I'm guessing you could also supply power via the USB/Multi relatively simply.

Also, the app for the Sony cams is supposed to allow for up to 5 cameras connected, but I've never fiddled with it enough to see whether you could set up camera switching (probably would need human intervention) if you wanted a "multicam" solution. Now your question has me curious, and I may have to try to see how crazy the configuration can get! I have the RX10M2 and RX100M4, so the mad scientist in me is getting a bit intrigued....

Dave Blackhurst · October 7th, 2016, 06:31 PM

Forgot the heat question... you should be fine for FHD/1080/60p, with no overheating in either the 10 or 100 in normal ambient conditions.

The RX100M4 WILL overheat after 5-8 minutes if recording 4K/30p, but you're looking at 1080p... I've not hit the overheat, which is actually surprising considering the small size of the camera and limited ability to dissipate heat...

If not recording to an internal card, that probably will help the heat issue as well, but with another hack/app you could also record to the card without the 29 minute clip limit for archival purposes.

Christopher Young · October 8th, 2016, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I need a small lightweight HD camera, 4K is not needed. A mirrorless camera light enough to clamp to the articulating dental light with a Manfrotto Magic Arm would be ideal.

Seriously Simon I would be considering something purpose built for the job. Your request is not a new one and there are systems out there built to do what you want. With a little variation I think you could easily achieve what you are after... as long as the budget holds up. Check out dental-cameras.com

Home

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Steven Digges · October 13th, 2016, 07:20 AM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the input, I am still working on this.

Dave, did you get anywhere with trying to go wireless?

Chris, Thanks for the link, I definitely have those up for consideration!

Kind Regards,

Steve

Adam Grunseth · October 18th, 2016, 11:23 AM

With your camera size restrictions, have you considered something along the lines of the Blackmagic Micro Cinema camera? It sounds like it might be a good fit for this project.

In regards to wireless to achieving wireless transmission, there are all sorts of avenues you can explore with this, depending on costs, complexity, and acceptable delay in the stream. I think the Teradek BOLT, or something similar, would be the easiest wireless solution to get up and running. However, if cost is an issue, you could rig up your own wifi streaming system, using VLC to send and receive the stream. This gets more complicated, however.

If it were me, and the budget allowed for it, I would go with the Micro Cinema Camera and a Teradek system. It is simple, easy, and doesn't require a lot of setup. Pretty much you can just turn it on and go.

Steven Digges · October 26th, 2016, 11:10 PM

Hey Gentlemen,

My client has rescheduled his seminar for February 3 so I will not be building this right away.

Dave, I would love to here how your wireless test went? The system I need must be as simple as possible so it will probably end up being Teradek, Bolt. But I would still like to know how yours worked out.

I am leaning towards the specialized video cameras Christopher pointed out.

Thank you all for the input. I'll let you know how it goes.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Mazhar Celikoyar · November 1st, 2016, 03:54 AM

I am an otolaryngologist and my article on recording rhinoplasty surgery has been just published. You may reach it through the below link: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...4.2016.1240582

Throughout the article, you will be able to follow my reasonings behind the equipment chosen. A handheld size camcorder with manual control features that is well positioned and with a narrow beam light mounted on top of it has helped me video record all of the details.

October 4th, 2016, 12:28 AM	#1
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Please help me build a wireless video system. I am going to build a wireless camera system for a client that has been with me for fifteen years. He is a dental surgeon. The work flow goes like this. I need a small lightweight HD camera, 4K is not needed. A mirrorless camera light enough to clamp to the articulating dental light with a Manfrotto Magic Arm would be ideal. I will use a Teradek or Camera Motion Research wireless transmitter to send the live video image from the operatory to a conference room next door to the operatory. The video will be received for viewing on a 65” class LCD monitor, or whatever I decide upon. The audience viewing the monitor will be a maximum of fifteen dentists watching the live surgery for training purposes. I am well versed in projection systems but don’t want to use projection. Considering the small audience size I think I will be far better off with a monitor of 65” or bigger. The monitor will be used for PowerPoint slides as often as the live video. The camera (or possibly two): I am not up to date on small video cameras, I am still a big camera shooter so I need some help here. The primary role of the camera will be to shoot into the mouth of the patient so the students can see the details of the surgery. I have been there myself and recorded this type of surgery. Light is not a problem, there is lots of it with the primary source being tungsten. The biggest issue is the almost macro conditions. I don’t need to single out an individual tooth but let’s say the subject is the inside of a mouth filling the screen. If I add a second camera that will be for a wide shot showing the doctor sitting next to the patient. The shot into the mouth is the priority. If I can mount the camera on the dental light the distance will be approximately 16 to 24 inches from the mouth. To avoid recording limits and overheating I will put an external recorder in the signal flow. The camera MUST have a clean live view with a HDMI output that does NOT time out. That is critical for this scenario. These sessions will be recorded but the live view is just as important. I am not considering streaming the image into the conference room. I will only be there for the first seminar and after that the Doctor will be on his own. I need this system to be simple and a high quality image. A HD image of 720 x 1280 will be fine. For the sake of image transmission safety I am planning on getting a stand for the transmitter and a 30 foot HDMI cable in case the transmitter needs to be moved closer to the receiver. Obviously I am worried about the wall between the two rooms. The actual distance between the closest operatory and the conference room is about 50 feet. But he may want to use other rooms. I am all ears for solutions here. Small cameras and big monitors, not to mention wireless video transmitting are not my specialty. In addition to Teradeck I am looking into transmitters from the good folks at Camera Motion Research. I have had dealings with them in the past and they are awesome to deal with. They are my first choice if the specs work out. My budget is not unlimited but it is what it will take to make this work. I will spec it out and the Doctor will say go or no go. I know him well, if I can keep it reasonable enough he will go for it. One more thing, this dental office is in another state than I live in. I will be ordering everything in advance to be delivered to his office. I MUST nail every piece and part I need for the installation! Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 5th, 2016, 01:27 PM	#2
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. My first thought is stay at 1920x1080 or above, especially with that large a screen - nothing worse than low resolution on a big screen, IMO... fuzzy is fuzzy.... Is there going to be a weight limit on that swing arm light, that would be one potential issue - those sorts of things are probably set up for a certain amount of weight, and adding another mass on the "lever" could be a problem? The other thing is the camera will need an A/C adapter, methinks - won't want to mess with batteries, so I'd think an adapter for power would be mandatory. That ruled out my first thought, which was the little Sony RX100M3 or M4, with the video clip length hack (might not need the hack for HDMI out as you've described, but...)... and my other suggestions run into that weight thing!

October 5th, 2016, 03:08 PM	#3
Edward Carlson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States Posts: 807	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Why does it need to be wireless? There are more complications with a wireless transmission than with a simple (and less expensive) cable solution. If your camera has HDMI, you are limited to about 100ft of cable. You can squeeze more out of it with an amplified cable, but I've had varied success with them. I think your best option is to do everything over HD-SDI. Either get a camera with HD-SDI, or get an HDMI to SDI converter. On the TV end, an AJA Hi5 or a Blackmagic Micro Converter will turn the signal back into HDMI. The Micro converters are nice because they are powered over USB, which most TVs have these days, so it's one less power plug to deal with. You can make a very clean install with some dual-lock tape and appropriately sized USB and HDMI cables. I really want to suggest the mini cameras from Marshall, but they all have manual-focus lenses. I assume the doctor will want auto-focus so he doesn't have to mess with the camera during a procedure. Look at JVC cameras. They are a very good value for the money. The HM200 has a removable handle, so you can make it pretty compact.

October 5th, 2016, 11:50 PM	#4
Donald McPherson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Aberdeen Scotland Posts: 815	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Heres my suggestion. Gopro 3+ camera. (if that's too wide an angle you get a kit to put on for different lenses). or other suitable camera with HDMI HDMI cable and USB cable to power the Gopro. HDMI TV transmitter / reciever. You can get them for under £300. (Strange but the one I bought has the protect system built in when I streamed to my laptop via HDMI USB convertor. So solution was to buy a cheap and I mean cheap £8 HDMI splitter from Ebay) And maybe one of those magic arms. Last edited by Donald McPherson; October 5th, 2016 at 11:52 PM. Reason: added item.

October 7th, 2016, 03:08 PM	#5
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Thanks for the input gentlemen. Right now the camera looks like it will be the Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 II. I know the is a mark3 and a M4 was just announced but the M2 is better suited for my specs. Does anyone have input on this camera? When shooting in plain old 1080P 30 AVCHD does it have overheating issues? I am still looking at huge monitors and wireless transmitters. His first seminar is booked but others that will follow are not set yet. I may try to talk him into a cable for the first one but he really wants wireless. I am concerned about distances and walls. Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 7th, 2016, 03:23 PM	#6
Edward Carlson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States Posts: 807	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. I really want to dissuade you from that camera. It has Micro HDMI, which after a few plug/unplug cycles is going to get worn out and break. Regular HDMI isn't very robust, Micro HDMI even less so. Especially considering these people are doctors and nurses, not video engineers. The RX10 also has a 29 minute video recording limit. For the same price ($1,295) you can get a JVC HM170 which has no recording limit (up to whatever size your memory card is.) Or for $1,880 you can get a JVC HM200, which adds HD-SDI output.

October 7th, 2016, 04:02 PM	#7
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Hi Edward, I hear you about the small HDMI connection. I am not crazy about that ether. The 29 min limit is not a problem as long as there is no overheating. A cool down period can not happen. Size and weight are critical for this job. I have been to this office and shot surgery myself. I did it by hovering a semi shoulder mount camera over them on a jib. There really is no "good place" to mount a camera the Doctor can run himself. The JVCs have several good points over the RX10 but they are almost twice the size and weight. To much so I think. Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 7th, 2016, 06:20 PM	#8
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. OK, let's throw a curveball at you.... the RX10M2 ALREADY HAS WIRELESS BUILT IN (WiFi and NFC)! All you'd need is the app, and maybe something like the Chromecast to connect to an external "monitor" - there is a delay, but that shouldn't be an issue? I don't know how the video quality would be on a huge screen, but I've got all the bits sitting here, and will try it with the M2, chromecast and a 40"4K TV and see if it sucks or not.... I think I'll have to have an Android device in there to "cast", as the TV isn't a "smart" one... You don't need to go to the M3, in fact it would be wrong for your application, it's bigger and heavier (that 600mm lens is not needed unless you're shooting the surgery half a block away....). You're probably thinking of the RX100 when you mentioned a M4 (the M5 was announced yesterday...), and it might do what you need, it just doesn't have much lens range (24-70mm), and the little battery would become an issue in longer surgery situations, IMO. There is a little nearly invisible flap on the battery door that's clearly for an external cable/adapter, but I have no idea about availability.... I know that there have been battery shaped A/C adapters, and I'm guessing you could also supply power via the USB/Multi relatively simply. Also, the app for the Sony cams is supposed to allow for up to 5 cameras connected, but I've never fiddled with it enough to see whether you could set up camera switching (probably would need human intervention) if you wanted a "multicam" solution. Now your question has me curious, and I may have to try to see how crazy the configuration can get! I have the RX10M2 and RX100M4, so the mad scientist in me is getting a bit intrigued....

October 7th, 2016, 06:31 PM	#9
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Forgot the heat question... you should be fine for FHD/1080/60p, with no overheating in either the 10 or 100 in normal ambient conditions. The RX100M4 WILL overheat after 5-8 minutes if recording 4K/30p, but you're looking at 1080p... I've not hit the overheat, which is actually surprising considering the small size of the camera and limited ability to dissipate heat... If not recording to an internal card, that probably will help the heat issue as well, but with another hack/app you could also record to the card without the 29 minute clip limit for archival purposes.

October 13th, 2016, 07:20 AM	#11
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Hi Guys, Thanks for the input, I am still working on this. Dave, did you get anywhere with trying to go wireless? Chris, Thanks for the link, I definitely have those up for consideration! Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

October 18th, 2016, 11:23 AM	#12
Adam Grunseth Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Eugene Oregon Posts: 393	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. With your camera size restrictions, have you considered something along the lines of the Blackmagic Micro Cinema camera? It sounds like it might be a good fit for this project. In regards to wireless to achieving wireless transmission, there are all sorts of avenues you can explore with this, depending on costs, complexity, and acceptable delay in the stream. I think the Teradek BOLT, or something similar, would be the easiest wireless solution to get up and running. However, if cost is an issue, you could rig up your own wifi streaming system, using VLC to send and receive the stream. This gets more complicated, however. If it were me, and the budget allowed for it, I would go with the Micro Cinema Camera and a Teradek system. It is simple, easy, and doesn't require a lot of setup. Pretty much you can just turn it on and go.

October 26th, 2016, 11:10 PM	#13
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. Hey Gentlemen, My client has rescheduled his seminar for February 3 so I will not be building this right away. Dave, I would love to here how your wireless test went? The system I need must be as simple as possible so it will probably end up being Teradek, Bolt. But I would still like to know how yours worked out. I am leaning towards the specialized video cameras Christopher pointed out. Thank you all for the input. I'll let you know how it goes. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

November 1st, 2016, 03:54 AM	#14
Mazhar Celikoyar New Boot Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Istanbul Posts: 9	Re: Please help me build a wireless video system. I am an otolaryngologist and my article on recording rhinoplasty surgery has been just published. You may reach it through the below link: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...4.2016.1240582 Throughout the article, you will be able to follow my reasonings behind the equipment chosen. A handheld size camcorder with manual control features that is well positioned and with a narrow beam light mounted on top of it has helped me video record all of the details.