Microcopter CRASH at DVinfo.net

Warren Kawamoto · November 1st, 2012, 08:55 AM

If this had hit someone on the head, I think it could have been fatal.

George Kilroy · November 1st, 2012, 10:02 AM

And some people talk about using those at weddings!!!!

Bob Hart · November 1st, 2012, 10:11 AM

The controllablity of these things might not be up to coping with the extreme gusts and eddies between tall buildings even if at groundlevel things seem calm. The lithium fire is not very encouraging. If the burning bits had lobbed in through a bus window, the public liabilty risk does not bear thinking about.

Tim Polster · November 1st, 2012, 10:11 AM

Ouch! Smoke and all.

Trevor Dennis · November 1st, 2012, 04:00 PM

We have a young lad in town who has one, and seems to flown it in, what I thought, were high risk places.

The footage of the beach at the begining was a test of the copter's homing ability. It saves a GPS location of the transmitter, and if it looses it control signal, it returns to that location. Youn Daniel says it got about three kilometers up the beach before he lost the video feed, (he has real time video link to the copter). At that point he turned off the transmitter, and it came back to him. Clever stuff.

Incidentally, he has some shocking flicker in his footage. The camera is the NEX-5 but I don't know what settings he used. Any thought on what the problem is?

Dave Blackhurst · November 1st, 2012, 09:53 PM

I was going to say that Larry, Curly, and Moe in the first video didn't seem to have it all together... there are risks to anything, but clearly those guys needed some flight time (and a belt!?) before flying/shooting in a urban setting.

I've played with "microcopters", some handle better than others, and it definitely takes TIME to get the feel for them, even just flying around indoors with no "environmental" issues. That video looked more to me like a rookie pilot who didn't know how to control the vehicle than anything else. Even after some computer R/C simulator time, flying an actual heli is "interesting"...

The last video shows how you go slow and control the aircraft, not hit the throttle and "go" - again, the difference between a "rookie" and a seasoned pilot/operator... and the natural instinct to "cut" the throttle would likely have dropped the thing straight out of the air long before it careened off with a mind of it's own... unless there was some other mechanical/electrical issue.

I almost wondered with the massive amount of "pyrotechnics/smoke" whether this was another "staged" viral video attempt? Do they have "Jacka$$" in NZ (the show, not the breed, as I know THOSE can be found anywhere...)?

I've seen local R/C flyers crater a traditional "stunt" heli (doing agressive maneuvers, doesn't take much to cause a crash, and it happens FAST!), at the local airshow - you wouldn't want to be right under it, but it sure didn't blow up or injure anyone... the "parts recovery" did elicit an approving cheer from the crowd <wink>... and stunt flying is far more violent than anything you'd expect from a video platform properly operated!

Robert Turchick · November 1st, 2012, 11:29 PM

Well...I will say a few things about this highly illegal act...
(First video of course)
First...this is just the kind of crap that is going to get ALL R/C video and photography banned forever. And for those of us who follow the letter of the law knowing full well the risks of flying ANY machine, that will be a major bummer. This is a fresh topic with the FAA, AMA and several other organizations trying to figure out how to accommodate hobbyists and professionals. It's not settled yet!

Second...there are no pyrotechnics involved. The thick smoke is from a punctured lipo battery. I've seen this up close and it's scary as they explode violently in certain situations causing fires. It's a very common type of battery that is sealed in a foil pouch. Puncture that pouch in a crash and basic chemistry takes over. Lithium burns when coming in contact with air and can reach temps above 1400 deg. Oh and the smoke is toxic.

Cannot say how pissed off this video makes me!
Going to bed now!

Trevor Dennis · November 2nd, 2012, 03:22 AM

I thought Dave was mixing up the posts for a moment there, as I had not noticed the crash video was in New Zealand, and the second video that I posted was also in NZ.

When I first moved to NZ from the UK I was more than surprised at the casual attitude to risk. At three different Motocross meetings I photographed, I was allowed to wander anywhere I wanted whenever I wanted. I think I could have stood in the middle of the track with the bikes racing past me, and no one would batted an eye lid!

I'd still like to hear opinions about what the likely cause of the flicker in the second video was caused by?

Bob Hart · November 2nd, 2012, 05:39 AM

I didn't observe flicker as such but there is stutter in the playback of the clip at my end. That may be related to the upload and download to viewer path.

If there is flicker that I am not observing, it may be attributable to strobing in the image due to propellor blade shadows falling on the front element of the lens, or vibrations from the propellor airflow trembling the camera ever so slightly and inducing a very slight rolling shutter artifact.

This operator is very good, harmonising the crane ups/downs and the tilts to retain pleasing compostion, not an easy task I am sure.

Dave Blackhurst · November 2nd, 2012, 12:05 PM

Yeah, I noticed more than a few NZ "epic fail" style videos of stuff crashing and blowing up (sometimes deliberately!). Maybe I should consider a move! The first video IS a good example of poor practices, the second a good example of a operator that knows how to fly and protect against risks.

I have heard of the "risks" associated with Lithium batteries - and no doubt under certain conditions they can be a serious problem (recalling the loss of the UPS cargo plane because of a lithium battery fire in a large shipment of vell phone batteries IIRC, and the resulting bans on large or large quantities of LiOn batteries in aircraft/shipments).

Even an alkaline battery gets pretty hot if shorted - improper handling is one issue, but it appears that "catastrophic failure" is another, and it appears in that first video that the battery was ventilated by the severe impact... based on a number of "battery abuse videos" on YouToob. I'd speculate that better packaging and perhaps better airframe design could reduce any such risks...

I somehow suspect Larry Curly and Moe "homebuilt" their "chopper", and THAT might have contributed to the EPIC FAIL - while not a fan of regulation, some people simply don't properly evaluate risks (texting and driving being a prime example) and must be "induced" to do what their tiny little brains are otherwise unable to fathom... There is a reason for the saying "dumber than a bag of hammers"...

RE: Flashing

In the second video, I noticed what appeared to be a very slight "pulsing" in spots (wasn't overly bad), and without knowing the entire workflow, it's hard to know where that was introduced (original footage/ingested footage/edited footage/rendered footage/uploaded footage). I did see one severe instance of "flashing" in the bell tower, caused by moire/aliasing that is a well known "weakness" of large sensor cameras. That was because of what appeared to be a fine "mesh" grill over the bell tower openings, that pattern really messed up the ability of the camera to process the detail in the image!

Trevor Dennis · November 2nd, 2012, 03:51 PM

Thanks for your comments re the flicker. It is _very_ apparent at my end, so I am surprised some of you are not seeing it. I've sent Daniel (the 'pilot' in the second video) a link to this thread, and told him he ought to sign up to DVInfo, so he just might happen along.

Warren Kawamoto · November 2nd, 2012, 04:15 PM

I guess the operator was not the owner. If you turn up the volume and listen carefully, you can hear the heli operator call the apparent owner and apologize. At 2:12 you can clearly hear him say "I do apologize".....then mentions the building at 2:18.

Looking at the footage again, I'm wondering what caused the crash:
1. A sudden gust of wind blew the aircraft out of control and into the building?
2. Radio interference, or multiple reflections caused a break in the link, causing loss of control?
3. Pilot error?
4. Equipment malfunction?

Robert Turchick · November 2nd, 2012, 07:42 PM

Crash was pure pilot error. Watch and you'll see it spinning as it gets higher and higher. There's no indication which is the front or back of the copter and once you lose orientation...game over! And the bounce off the building probably killed the radio or the pilot panicked and stopped trying to save it. Most of the guys flying these put a very bright piece on it to mark the front. We do the same with helis. They get visually small really quickly. There is zero room for error if you can't tell the orientation.

Once again...inexperienced dumbasses in the vid. Very lucky no one was injured or killed!

Trevor Dennis · November 3rd, 2012, 02:24 AM

Well I can't hear the comments Warren mentions.

The guy standing on the right is wearing some heavy black goggles. Would they be some sort of gizmo that lets him see live video from copter camera? Daniel's Hexacopter needs two operators. Daniel, who owns and built it, was controlling the movement, and he had a buddy with him who carried what looked like a seven inch screen with a deep hood, and he looked to be controlling the camera. In the Auckland crash video, the guy with the big black goggles also appears to be carrying what could be a second RC unit.

Robert's comments about orientation vividly highlight the problems involved in controlling these unhelpfully symmetrical flying kaleidoscopes. The copter might be responding to a wind gust, confusing the operator into thinking he caused the movement, and reacting by moving the joystick 180° in the wrong direction. i.e. into the side of a building.

Don’t worry too much about injured Kiwis. Most NZ hospital Emergency Departments have a big jar of ‘Harden Up’ pills on the counter. So long as all your limbs are still attached, one or two of these pills fixes up a crook Kiwi.

Warren Kawamoto · December 2nd, 2012, 12:18 PM

Original video was deleted by author, here are new links to more crashes. First on the list "Mikrocopter Drone Crashes into Skyscraper" was the original video this thread referred to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

In most of these crashes, you'll see that:
1. Loss of control occurred quickly and unexpectedly.
2. These should never be used in close proximity of people...the risk is far too great.

November 1st, 2012, 08:55 AM	#1
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	Microcopter CRASH If this had hit someone on the head, I think it could have been fatal. Mikrokopter Drone Crashes into Skyscraper - YouTube

November 1st, 2012, 10:02 AM	#2
George Kilroy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 699	Re: Microcopter CRASH And some people talk about using those at weddings!!!!

November 1st, 2012, 10:11 AM	#3
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Re: Microcopter CRASH The controllablity of these things might not be up to coping with the extreme gusts and eddies between tall buildings even if at groundlevel things seem calm. The lithium fire is not very encouraging. If the burning bits had lobbed in through a bus window, the public liabilty risk does not bear thinking about.

November 1st, 2012, 10:11 AM	#4
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	Re: Microcopter CRASH Ouch! Smoke and all.

November 1st, 2012, 04:00 PM	#5
Trevor Dennis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New Zealand, Rapaura (near Blenheim) Posts: 434	Re: Microcopter CRASH We have a young lad in town who has one, and seems to flown it in, what I thought, were high risk places. The footage of the beach at the begining was a test of the copter's homing ability. It saves a GPS location of the transmitter, and if it looses it control signal, it returns to that location. Youn Daniel says it got about three kilometers up the beach before he lost the video feed, (he has real time video link to the copter). At that point he turned off the transmitter, and it came back to him. Clever stuff. Incidentally, he has some shocking flicker in his footage. The camera is the NEX-5 but I don't know what settings he used. Any thought on what the problem is? Wyesguy Photography Hexacopter demo - YouTube __________________ Stills at: www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-dennis/

November 1st, 2012, 09:53 PM	#6
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Microcopter CRASH I was going to say that Larry, Curly, and Moe in the first video didn't seem to have it all together... there are risks to anything, but clearly those guys needed some flight time (and a belt!?) before flying/shooting in a urban setting. I've played with "microcopters", some handle better than others, and it definitely takes TIME to get the feel for them, even just flying around indoors with no "environmental" issues. That video looked more to me like a rookie pilot who didn't know how to control the vehicle than anything else. Even after some computer R/C simulator time, flying an actual heli is "interesting"... The last video shows how you go slow and control the aircraft, not hit the throttle and "go" - again, the difference between a "rookie" and a seasoned pilot/operator... and the natural instinct to "cut" the throttle would likely have dropped the thing straight out of the air long before it careened off with a mind of it's own... unless there was some other mechanical/electrical issue. I almost wondered with the massive amount of "pyrotechnics/smoke" whether this was another "staged" viral video attempt? Do they have "Jacka$$" in NZ (the show, not the breed, as I know THOSE can be found anywhere...)? I've seen local R/C flyers crater a traditional "stunt" heli (doing agressive maneuvers, doesn't take much to cause a crash, and it happens FAST!), at the local airshow - you wouldn't want to be right under it, but it sure didn't blow up or injure anyone... the "parts recovery" did elicit an approving cheer from the crowd <wink>... and stunt flying is far more violent than anything you'd expect from a video platform properly operated!

November 1st, 2012, 11:29 PM	#7
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: Microcopter CRASH Well...I will say a few things about this highly illegal act... (First video of course) First...this is just the kind of crap that is going to get ALL R/C video and photography banned forever. And for those of us who follow the letter of the law knowing full well the risks of flying ANY machine, that will be a major bummer. This is a fresh topic with the FAA, AMA and several other organizations trying to figure out how to accommodate hobbyists and professionals. It's not settled yet! Second...there are no pyrotechnics involved. The thick smoke is from a punctured lipo battery. I've seen this up close and it's scary as they explode violently in certain situations causing fires. It's a very common type of battery that is sealed in a foil pouch. Puncture that pouch in a crash and basic chemistry takes over. Lithium burns when coming in contact with air and can reach temps above 1400 deg. Oh and the smoke is toxic. Cannot say how pissed off this video makes me! Going to bed now! __________________ The older I get, the better I was! Last edited by Robert Turchick; November 2nd, 2012 at 08:34 AM.

November 2nd, 2012, 03:22 AM	#8
Trevor Dennis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New Zealand, Rapaura (near Blenheim) Posts: 434	Re: Microcopter CRASH I thought Dave was mixing up the posts for a moment there, as I had not noticed the crash video was in New Zealand, and the second video that I posted was also in NZ. When I first moved to NZ from the UK I was more than surprised at the casual attitude to risk. At three different Motocross meetings I photographed, I was allowed to wander anywhere I wanted whenever I wanted. I think I could have stood in the middle of the track with the bikes racing past me, and no one would batted an eye lid! I'd still like to hear opinions about what the likely cause of the flicker in the second video was caused by? __________________ Stills at: www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-dennis/

November 2nd, 2012, 05:39 AM	#9
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Re: Microcopter CRASH I didn't observe flicker as such but there is stutter in the playback of the clip at my end. That may be related to the upload and download to viewer path. If there is flicker that I am not observing, it may be attributable to strobing in the image due to propellor blade shadows falling on the front element of the lens, or vibrations from the propellor airflow trembling the camera ever so slightly and inducing a very slight rolling shutter artifact. This operator is very good, harmonising the crane ups/downs and the tilts to retain pleasing compostion, not an easy task I am sure. Last edited by Bob Hart; November 2nd, 2012 at 05:42 AM. Reason: error

November 2nd, 2012, 12:05 PM	#10
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Microcopter CRASH Yeah, I noticed more than a few NZ "epic fail" style videos of stuff crashing and blowing up (sometimes deliberately!). Maybe I should consider a move! The first video IS a good example of poor practices, the second a good example of a operator that knows how to fly and protect against risks. I have heard of the "risks" associated with Lithium batteries - and no doubt under certain conditions they can be a serious problem (recalling the loss of the UPS cargo plane because of a lithium battery fire in a large shipment of vell phone batteries IIRC, and the resulting bans on large or large quantities of LiOn batteries in aircraft/shipments). Even an alkaline battery gets pretty hot if shorted - improper handling is one issue, but it appears that "catastrophic failure" is another, and it appears in that first video that the battery was ventilated by the severe impact... based on a number of "battery abuse videos" on YouToob. I'd speculate that better packaging and perhaps better airframe design could reduce any such risks... I somehow suspect Larry Curly and Moe "homebuilt" their "chopper", and THAT might have contributed to the EPIC FAIL - while not a fan of regulation, some people simply don't properly evaluate risks (texting and driving being a prime example) and must be "induced" to do what their tiny little brains are otherwise unable to fathom... There is a reason for the saying "dumber than a bag of hammers"... RE: Flashing In the second video, I noticed what appeared to be a very slight "pulsing" in spots (wasn't overly bad), and without knowing the entire workflow, it's hard to know where that was introduced (original footage/ingested footage/edited footage/rendered footage/uploaded footage). I did see one severe instance of "flashing" in the bell tower, caused by moire/aliasing that is a well known "weakness" of large sensor cameras. That was because of what appeared to be a fine "mesh" grill over the bell tower openings, that pattern really messed up the ability of the camera to process the detail in the image!

November 2nd, 2012, 03:51 PM	#11
Trevor Dennis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New Zealand, Rapaura (near Blenheim) Posts: 434	Re: Microcopter CRASH Thanks for your comments re the flicker. It is _very_ apparent at my end, so I am surprised some of you are not seeing it. I've sent Daniel (the 'pilot' in the second video) a link to this thread, and told him he ought to sign up to DVInfo, so he just might happen along. __________________ Stills at: www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-dennis/

November 2nd, 2012, 04:15 PM	#12
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	Re: Microcopter CRASH I guess the operator was not the owner. If you turn up the volume and listen carefully, you can hear the heli operator call the apparent owner and apologize. At 2:12 you can clearly hear him say "I do apologize".....then mentions the building at 2:18. Looking at the footage again, I'm wondering what caused the crash: 1. A sudden gust of wind blew the aircraft out of control and into the building? 2. Radio interference, or multiple reflections caused a break in the link, causing loss of control? 3. Pilot error? 4. Equipment malfunction?

November 2nd, 2012, 07:42 PM	#13
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: Microcopter CRASH Crash was pure pilot error. Watch and you'll see it spinning as it gets higher and higher. There's no indication which is the front or back of the copter and once you lose orientation...game over! And the bounce off the building probably killed the radio or the pilot panicked and stopped trying to save it. Most of the guys flying these put a very bright piece on it to mark the front. We do the same with helis. They get visually small really quickly. There is zero room for error if you can't tell the orientation. Once again...inexperienced dumbasses in the vid. Very lucky no one was injured or killed! __________________ The older I get, the better I was!

November 3rd, 2012, 02:24 AM	#14
Trevor Dennis Major Player Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: New Zealand, Rapaura (near Blenheim) Posts: 434	Re: Microcopter CRASH Well I can't hear the comments Warren mentions. The guy standing on the right is wearing some heavy black goggles. Would they be some sort of gizmo that lets him see live video from copter camera? Daniel's Hexacopter needs two operators. Daniel, who owns and built it, was controlling the movement, and he had a buddy with him who carried what looked like a seven inch screen with a deep hood, and he looked to be controlling the camera. In the Auckland crash video, the guy with the big black goggles also appears to be carrying what could be a second RC unit. Robert's comments about orientation vividly highlight the problems involved in controlling these unhelpfully symmetrical flying kaleidoscopes. The copter might be responding to a wind gust, confusing the operator into thinking he caused the movement, and reacting by moving the joystick 180° in the wrong direction. i.e. into the side of a building. Don’t worry too much about injured Kiwis. Most NZ hospital Emergency Departments have a big jar of ‘Harden Up’ pills on the counter. So long as all your limbs are still attached, one or two of these pills fixes up a crook Kiwi. __________________ Stills at: www.flickr.com/photos/trevor-dennis/

December 2nd, 2012, 12:18 PM	#15
Warren Kawamoto Trustee Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,435	Re: Microcopter CRASH Original video was deleted by author, here are new links to more crashes. First on the list "Mikrocopter Drone Crashes into Skyscraper" was the original video this thread referred to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen Mikrokopter - bad and dangerous crash on Vimeo Mikrokopter - 200m d'altitude et crash on Vimeo Mikrokopter Crash - YouTube Mikrokopter aerial video "crash" - motor burns out! - YouTube Quadcopter Crash and BURN yes BURN - YouTube 400ft Quadcopter Crash with GoPro - YouTube FPV quadcopter crash - YouTube Quadcopter Crash Compilation - Bloopers from FPV Aerial Video Shoot - XP2 XPro Heli - GoPro Hero2 - YouTube In most of these crashes, you'll see that: 1. Loss of control occurred quickly and unexpectedly. 2. These should never be used in close proximity of people...the risk is far too great.