Sony A7S - 4K - Odyssey 7Q

[Ole Salomonsen]

Hi,

been reading some saying the Sony A7s will be supported on the Odyssey 7Q through a future fw update.

From (Elevated Visual) : "A7s will have a recording path to Odyssey 7Q. Mitch Gross at convergent design confirmed on Twitter. "Please quote accurately. I said there will be a path to this so A7s will work with Odyssey7Q.""

From (Stuart Keasley): "Convergent Design have confirmed today that their Odyssey 7Q will also support 4k over HDMI from the A7S... Still no housing available for it yet, but at least it's another option. "

I believe I have heard that the only way the 7Q can support 4K is through SDI.

Does that mean that if the Sony A7s is getting 4K support on the Odyssey 7Q, this will aquire an extra HDMI 2 SDI converter? Like the ones from BlackMagicDesign. Judging by the word "path" from Mithc Gross, I am thinking we will need a converter.

Or will the 7Q conveniently support 4K (UHD) from the A7s directly through the HDMI input?

A7s support was also briefly discussed under the GH4 thread on this forum, but there was no reply about the A7s, only the GH4.

The A7s will be a game changer in low light, knowing how to support it with recorders is important.

So, can someone from CD elaborate more on this?

Ole

[John Mastrogiacomo]

Don't count on any support for the A7S from CD until it is actually released and working.
Firmware updates have been extremely slow.

[Ed David]

I think it will work thru one hdmi cable - because the 7Q has 1x HDMI 1.4a input - which can carry a 4k signal.

I'm super excited for this release.

[Clermond Ferrand]

after the experience of promised and paid in advance FS700 / C500 features I dont see the A7s (also GH4) + 7Q combo coming in a realistic time frame.

The Shogun will probably be far sooner in the shelfs and it's a cheaper option too for the new 4K devices.

If you own a7Q already it might become an extra bonus. Some day. But don't consider it as an option if you are collecting pros and cons for the 7Q investment.

[Sami Sanpakkila]

It will take quite a long time before O7Q supports the A7S and most likely will cost additional money.

Here's the latest info from Mitch Gross:

"The current hardware does not support 4K over HDMI, or 108o/60p over HDMI. To support these means a hardware change. While we are working to determine the best solution and the fairest way to implement it for our clients, if it physically costs us money to do so then we cannot give it away for free."

"The ultimate plan has not yet been decided, which is why it has not yet been announced."

[Gary Huff]

The "ultimate plan" will have to be some kind of hardware converter that will take the HDMI input that supports 4K and convert it to a 2 3G-SDI or 4 HD-SDI output for the 7Q.

The Shogun will be a better option and will probably be available before there is anything released for the 7Q...even possibly before ProRes 4K recording even.

[Ed David]

All good advice
in the meatime today I recorded the 1080p signal out of the A7S. I don't even know if 4k output is enabled yet.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Ed David

in the meatime today I recorded the 1080p signal out of the A7S. I don't even know if 4k output is enabled yet.

The sad thing is that Sony doesn't have 10-bit out enabled for the HDMI like the GH4. That would make S-Log recording a lot more interesting.

[Phil Goetz]

Someone said A7Q.

Nice.

[Ole Salomonsen]

The Shogun is said to be available in mid-late October 2014.

I too doubt we will get the 7Q working with the A7S by then, but who knows.

I for one would prefer to have only the 7Q and I would like to ship my 7Q back for HDMI/A7S modification if possible, and not too expensive.

[Ole Salomonsen]

Trying out the A7S with the O7Q.

I get picture, but I am struggling with a few things, quality and frame rate.
Is the A7s yet supported officially?

From this table I assumed the A7s is supported:
https://www.convergent-design.com/pr...y7q.html#setup

Anyway, when I use 24p (23.976) on the A7s, it is detected as 29.97p, see attachment.
And I can find no way to set 23.976p manually on the O7Q?

I have tried different settings on the O7Q, from FS700 to other Sony camera.
Prores video in SLOG2 seem to be "graded" and look more like 709.
When using other profiles like Cine2, the picture look very bad in shadows and dark.

Will the O7Q only support SLOG2 from theA7s? (This is a question CD should be able to answer already now regardless of status/progress on the A7S+O7Q marriage)

BTW! An update on progress on A7S+O7Q "4K/UHD path" is welcome :)

Ole

EDIT: Oh I see the 32 under the setup menu, probably means 3:2 pulldown in O7Q to acheive 24p ??
https://www.convergent-design.com/pr...y7q.html#setup

Anyway, I still hope some light on the other questions.

[Jack Zhang]

You're far better off converting it to SDI. The hardware change required to get 4K HDMI will have to be an extra cost thing you have to send your unit into CD to do. It can't be done using a firmware update. Don't rely on 4K HDMI happening neither. We waited forever for FS100 HDMI timecode for the Nanoflash and in the end it was deemed impossible.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Jack,

We designed the nanoFlash prior to the invention of timecode over HDMI.

We were alerted by Sony that our HDMI receiver chip would most likely support their new timecode over HDMI, but it may not.

There was a very significant delay before we attempted to implement timecode over HDMI, due to other features that we were developing for the nanoFlash.

When we attempted to implement it, we found that the HDMI receiver chip did not support timecode.

Timecode over HDMI is not sent via the normal data path, thus one can not decode the HDMI signals and read timecode, as it is just not there.

The Timecode is sent via a secondary "out of band" signal, that our HDMI receiver chip could not see or decode. When we designed the nanoFlash, we used the most sophisticated HDMI receiver chip that was available at the time. Later, newer chips became available that supported this feature.


In reference to converting 4K HDMI to HD-SDI, we have not yet found a suitable converter that one could purchase. This is not for a lack of trying.

We feel that this is possible using multiple converters, but we feel that this is an unacceptable solution.

Jack, I am very sorry that we have let you down.

Respectfully,

[Dan Keaton]

Originally Posted by Ole Salomonsen

Trying out the A7S with the O7Q.

I get picture, but I am struggling with a few things, quality and frame rate.
Is the A7s yet supported officially?

From this table I assumed the A7s is supported:
https://www.convergent-design.com/pr...y7q.html#setup

Anyway, when I use 24p (23.976) on the A7s, it is detected as 29.97p, see attachment.
And I can find no way to set 23.976p manually on the O7Q?

I have tried different settings on the O7Q, from FS700 to other Sony camera.
Prores video in SLOG2 seem to be "graded" and look more like 709.
When using other profiles like Cine2, the picture look very bad in shadows and dark.

Will the O7Q only support SLOG2 from theA7s? (This is a question CD should be able to answer already now regardless of status/progress on the A7S+O7Q marriage)

BTW! An update on progress on A7S+O7Q "4K/UHD path" is welcome :)

Ole

EDIT: Oh I see the 32 under the setup menu, probably means 3:2 pulldown in O7Q to acheive 24p ??
https://www.convergent-design.com/pr...y7q.html#setup

Anyway, I still hope some light on the other questions.

Dear Ole,

1. Yes, if your camera is outputting 23.98 or 24.00 with 3:2 Pulldown frames added, then you should go into the Inputs menu and select the option to remove 3:2 Pulldown.

If you camera is outputting 23.98 or 24.00 and you see the Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q reporting 29.97 or 30, then you need to set this option.

The unit will then search for the 3:2 Pulldown Frames and remove them, and then report the proper frame rate.

Note: Please be certain to ensure that viewfinder data is not being output to the Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q as this interferes with us detecting 3:2 Pulldown Frames.

Also, please ensure that color bars are not being output either, for the same reason.

2. We have had another report that the A7s, when S-Log 2 is enabled, appears to be outputting a Rec. 709 like signal over HDMI.

We researched this issue.

We found that, currently, the A7s, when S-Log 2 is enabled in the camera, that it outputs Rec. 709 like images over HDMI. This can easily be proven by just connecting your A7s, over HDMI to a monitor or television. S-Log 2 images would appear to be "Flat" (or washed out with little contrast).

We hope that Sony will correct this via a future firmware update.

I can state, unequivocally, that if one turns on the LUT in the Odyssey7Q or Odyssey7, this is only for monitoring, and does not convert the incoming images from S-Log 2 to Rec. 709.

3. As many know, our Number One Priority, right now, and for some time, has been to provide a 4K compressed codec for the Odyssey7Q. Of course, we have been able to implement other significant improvements, but these did not interfere with Priority One.

We are making great progress on this project, and this is a key for being able to record 4K from the Sony A7s and other cameras.

But, I again want to be clear. The HDMI Receiver Chip electronics in the Odyssey7Q cannot handle 4K over HDMI. This would require a hardware change, and not just a firmware update.

We are not ready, at this time, to announce, details of our plans to support current Odyssey7Q owners.

Respectfully,

[Ole Salomonsen]

Dear Dan,

thanks for your valuable input.

Too bad about the HDMI/SLOG2 output issues with the A7s, I guess a fw update then is close, since the Atomos Shogun also is close. I am thinking Sony/Atomos must be aware of this since Atomos have been using/testing the A7s on their recorder for a long time now.

One question I would still like to know about is if other profiles than SLOG2 will be possible with the A7S on the O7Q, like Cine2 or Cine4, since these have less noise and also let you shoot with lower native ISO than ISO3200 on the A7s. Currently it looks like it is not working properly. I would like this option on the FS700 as well, but I assume this has been discussed many times previously (still hoping we will get Cine2/4 on FS700+O7Q). From what I understand you can shoot and record in whatever profile you want on the Atomos Shogun.

SLOG2 may be the profile with the best theoretical DR, but it may still not be the preferred choice for all or every situation.

Regarding the hardware limitations on the HDMI chip on current O7Q models, a hardware upgrade would still (hopefully) be cheaper than splashing out another 2 grand on the shogun. That´s why I am trying to find out of this will ever be an option for current O7Q owners.

From what I currently know, it may seem that I will need to also get the Atomos Shogun for my A7s :(

Indeed getting 4K in that "popular compressed codec" is something we are waiting on!! :)

Keep up your hard work!

Best,
Ole