1DS Mk IV

Paul Dhadialla · May 27th, 2009, 03:24 AM

No it doesn't exist ofcourse :) But here is what i'm thinking

Given the latest news with 'full manual controls' now available in the 5DMKII - and so quickly makes me wonder ...

Would this not be the right time on Canon's part to basically take back the lead in the DSLR or VDSLR and take a huge bite out of the HD video market from Sony, Panasonic and potentially Red by introducing another even better - say 1DS line camera with the digital photo/cinematographer in mind

Given that we have the Red DCMS system / Scarlet and EPIC coming in 2010 - do they have a choice?
Canon has a full line of HD Video Lenses, photo lenses, and accessories galore.
If the popped in RAW and threw out a new set of Cinema lenses with manual controls - the game changes again.

The 5DMKII users are drooling for 24p and probably many, including myself are willing to dish out 10K plus for Scarlet - so they know the market is there.

4K is the next step up from standard 1080P HD - and delivery formats/displays of the near future will have us looking back at 1080P as we do upon DV and DVD from 5 years ago.

They also need to take back their position as the megapixel leader from Sony (A900 in that class of cameras) They basically want GH1 gone - and I think this firmware update was a response to GH1 largely

So what does Canon do next?

Maybe the upcoming 5DMK III has some of these features I'm talking about above starting with RAW. I suspect that if they did this anytime soon - the camera will be crippled in many ways so that it doesn't make it the ideal camera for say, weddings. Like keeping the FAT32 file system while having enormous 4k RAW files to work with. You can only shoot say 5-8 minutes at at time and there is no video out. OK for commercials/films rights. Cost? I say 5K-6K without lens - same sensor as the 5DMKII with a new faster processors. If you want more storage - modular add on drive systems like Red

If you want 2K, 4K and all the typical things you expect from a video camera, the next line of professional Canon HD video camera would do it and probably cost about 10-12K.
Difference being but here you could record longer lengths (2-3 hours) and gear would interface with all things video that we are used to. Aimed at the wedding/news guy, aspiring film maker

Anyways - just brainstorming :)

Paul

Jon Fairhurst · May 27th, 2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dhadialla

They basically want GH1 gone - and I think this firmware update was a response to GH1 largely

In many ways, Canon is a glass company. I think that experts were touting Nikon glass over L glass was the primary motivator.

25p (if not 24p as well) will come in the 5D2 to satisfy the European/Chinese market. Having 30p, but not 25p isn't just a feature issue, it's a cultural insult. If they do it right, we'll get 29.97 as well.

I'm thinking that the next big performance step (1DS Mk IV) might be a full resolution HDMI output, if not HD-SDI. The LCD might become 16x9 with additional information on the left/right in photo mode. Still photographers would appreciate this, as they would be able to do live monitoring on a large HD display.

The other thing they need to offer in the 1DS Mk IV is "super-duper vertically awesome digital processing" with the DIGIC V processor. In other words, no more aliasing. This requires a faster sensor, so also add less rolling shutter to the list. And definitely add faster capture rates, maybe when windowed.

RAW video and 4K might come later, but I think Canon would want to see if it catches on beyond the RED heads and Hollywood high rollers. I could upgrade to Vegas 9 and download 4K R3D clips today, but I have yet to do it. The files are huge, my processor would be swamped, and my monitor is 1080p. Working in true 4K RAW is a big commitment for the average user with today's technology. And, believe me, I understand and value what RAW offers!

Anyway, full res HDMI (for monitoring as well as uncompressed capture), no aliasing, low rolling shutter and fast frame rates would make for a worthwhile upgrade that everybody would benefit from. Add 4K RAW to the Mark V...

Yang Wen · May 27th, 2009, 12:18 PM

Why the 1D? The DSLR form factor will forever be dedicated for a hybrid machine. Something a photo journalist would prefer. Dedicated videographers/filmmakers will always prefer a more conventional camcorder body.

No way Canon will put 4K RAW in a 1D series DSLR body. It's wasted effort. I don't know why would anyone even dream for such a device. You'll have better luck with a rumored APS-C Canon camera supporting RAW and 4K.

Nathan Troutman · May 27th, 2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I could upgrade to Vegas 9 and download 4K R3D clips today, but I have yet to do it. The files are huge, my processor would be swamped, and my monitor is 1080p. Working in true 4K RAW is a big commitment for the average user with today's technology. And, believe me, I understand and value what RAW offers!

I'm using a $780 Hackintosh I bought from Psystar (looks like Bankruptcy for them, but I got mine just in time.) And 4k Red RAW works just fine. Processing out to Apple's Pro-Res runs pretty good and then editing the 1080P pro-res is easy. It is really really cool to create your look in post (developing your shot) and know it's all non-destructive.

Until I upgraded to an Intel mac I couldn't play with any of the free Red footage. Now that I'm on intel, I finally got the chance. RAW is where it's at. You can't create better image processing in camera with any camera compared to what you can leverage when you have the full power of a desktop machine. That's what makes Red's approach so smart.

Nick Wilcox-Brown · May 28th, 2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

If they do it right, we'll get 29.97 as well.

Jon, EOS 5D Mark II is 29.97 - it is just not advertised as such.

Nick.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Wilcox-Brown

Jon, EOS 5D Mark II is 29.97 - it is just not advertised as such.

That's not the experience from the people here who have tested it.

For instance, Cineform NeoScene slows the video and audio by 0.1% specifically to address this issue. If the video was already at 29.97 (the process doesn't drop frames, it just reconforms to 29.97), there would have been no need to slow the audio to maintain sync.

Jamey Gigliagi · May 28th, 2009, 03:52 PM

I dont think it is a question of if Canon will release a dslr with 4k raw video as the video and photography markets are converging on the same hardware. Sure, they may continue to make two versions, or, if we are lucky, will make it like the upcomming red systems where you buy the sensor and it attaches to various body adapters for video and still photography. All they would have to do is develop an addon storage unit with the required bandwidth and they could add 4k capabilites to their next camera. Really, the only differences between a video camera and a still camera is the resulting file type, which resides in software. If the engineers at Canon (or Nikon) are really lazy, they could even just give you the option to take stills at 24fps and tell you to put the files onto a timeline yourself. Assuming that you are not doing live work, this is perfectly fine.

Nick Wilcox-Brown · May 28th, 2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

That's not the experience from the people here who have tested it.

For instance, Cineform NeoScene slows the video and audio by 0.1% specifically to address this issue. If the video was already at 29.97 (the process doesn't drop frames, it just reconforms to 29.97), there would have been no need to slow the audio to maintain sync.

Jon, fact that it is 29.97 came from the Cineform website a few weeks back when I was exploring Pros and Cons of Neoscene.

Robert Sanders · May 28th, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

No way Canon will put 4K RAW in a 1D series DSLR body. It's wasted effort. I don't know why would anyone even dream for such a device. You'll have better luck with a rumored APS-C Canon camera supporting RAW and 4K.

Agreed.

I'm holding off until we find out if this APS-C HD Camera is real or not. I want a real HD camera. Not a compromised hybrid.

And I really don't think Canon can put full HDMI or HD-SDI into the camera as the chipsets and board sizes would probably be way too big and generate too much heat for such a small body.

Yang Wen · May 28th, 2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

Agreed.

I'm holding off until we find out if this APS-C HD Camera is real or not. I want a real HD camera. Not a compromised hybrid.

And I really don't think Canon can put full HDMI or HD-SDI into the camera as the chipsets and board sizes would probably be way too big and generate too much heat for such a small body.

On that same notion.. I don't get people who proclaim "DSLR is the future".. People are forgetting that the sensor technology inside the 5D2 DSLR body can be employed in any form factor, including the familiar video camera form factor. So no DSLR is not the future of indie filmmaking, nor would I hope it to be. The technology that started with these hybrid DSLRs represents the future of indie filmmaking.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Wilcox-Brown

Jon, fact that it is 29.97 came from the Cineform website a few weeks back when I was exploring Pros and Cons of Neoscene.

I found this line: "Fixed: Conformed Canon 5D Mark II from the camera’s reported 30.0 fps to the correct 29.97 fps including audio rate change." here:

Cineform Tech Blog Blog Archive Neo Scene Windows Update Log (archive)

I see how that could be confusing. From various Cineform threads here, it was pretty clear that the Canon actually shoots at 30p. Cineform sets it as 29.97, which conforms to an NTSC timeline with no dropped frames. However, this slowed the video by 0.1% in builds 108 through 110, and users found that the audio drifted. In build 110, the audio was automatically slowed by 0.1% to match.

Anyway, following the development, it was pretty clear that the actual shooting rate is 30.0 fps.

Personally, I'd like checkboxes for slowing the audio and/or video. In PAL land, I would rather keep it native 30.0 with no audio scaling and go to 25p from there. Also, for editing with other cameras, I'd rather not stretch the audio or video wholesale. I'd edit in real time and do any required stretching to avoid dropped frames on a case by case basis.

Mark Hahn · May 28th, 2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Wen

Dedicated videographers/filmmakers will always prefer a more conventional camcorder body.

Not true. Once you put them on rails there is no physical body difference issue. And you can't shoot anything serious without rails.

Yang Wen · May 28th, 2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hahn

Not true. Once you put them on rails there is no physical body difference issue. And you can't shoot anything serious without rails.

Can't shoot anything serious without rails? Ha I guess to each of his own..

How is a DSLR body, which is designed for still photography beneficial to a video shooter? How do you integrate these fundamental features for videography into a hybrid DSLR body?

- Top handle
- Flip out LCD
- XLR connectors
- Dedicated audio level knob
- Ergonomics designed for video shooting as opposed to still shooting. Shooting the 5D2 with a shoulder rig but having to reach the "SET" button to start/stop recording is ergonomically sound?
- The numerous dedicated buttons that would be beneficial to a video shooter but of no usefulness to a still shooter
- Eye cup viewfinder (no - a loupe velcroed to the LCD is not a solution)

DSLR is designed for stills acquisition. Period. The SLR form factor is ergonomically sound when you're talking about capturing individual images at fractions of a second. For videography, you need a device that is designed to be held with sufficient stability for continuous images. Two totally different needs require two totally different body design. Hybrid shooters will want the SLR form factor, but dedicated video shooters will always prefer a conventional camcorder body.

That being said, given that we have the smallish Rebel T1i with the ASP-C sensor - There is no technical hurdle holding Canon back from creating something like the Panasonic EZ1U, stuffing a large sensor into a small camcorder body.

Jon Fairhurst · May 28th, 2009, 05:30 PM

There are definitely ergonomic limitations for video with a DSLR. I can mount the camera to a shoulder rig, add a loupe, and use my left hand for focus (I do it directly; add rails and follow focus if you have the budget), but that makes all the buttons on the right side of the camera stupid to get to. My left hand can't go through/around the loupe, and my right hand is supporting the rig. Any time I need to control the right side of the camera, it jerks around. Maybe I need to change my rig for right hand focus control...

Peer Landa · May 28th, 2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamey Gigliagi

If the engineers at Canon (or Nikon) are really lazy, they could even just give you the option to take stills at 24fps and tell you to put the files onto a timeline yourself. Assuming that you are not doing live work, this is perfectly fine.

"Perfectly fine"... hum, I don't think the shutter would last long enough for that (isn't the current shutter life about 100,000 shots..?).

-- peer

May 27th, 2009, 03:24 AM	#1
Paul Dhadialla Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 143	1DS Mk IV - 24p Raw/4K No it doesn't exist ofcourse :) But here is what i'm thinking Given the latest news with 'full manual controls' now available in the 5DMKII - and so quickly makes me wonder ... Would this not be the right time on Canon's part to basically take back the lead in the DSLR or VDSLR and take a huge bite out of the HD video market from Sony, Panasonic and potentially Red by introducing another even better - say 1DS line camera with the digital photo/cinematographer in mind Given that we have the Red DCMS system / Scarlet and EPIC coming in 2010 - do they have a choice? Canon has a full line of HD Video Lenses, photo lenses, and accessories galore. If the popped in RAW and threw out a new set of Cinema lenses with manual controls - the game changes again. The 5DMKII users are drooling for 24p and probably many, including myself are willing to dish out 10K plus for Scarlet - so they know the market is there. 4K is the next step up from standard 1080P HD - and delivery formats/displays of the near future will have us looking back at 1080P as we do upon DV and DVD from 5 years ago. They also need to take back their position as the megapixel leader from Sony (A900 in that class of cameras) They basically want GH1 gone - and I think this firmware update was a response to GH1 largely So what does Canon do next? Maybe the upcoming 5DMK III has some of these features I'm talking about above starting with RAW. I suspect that if they did this anytime soon - the camera will be crippled in many ways so that it doesn't make it the ideal camera for say, weddings. Like keeping the FAT32 file system while having enormous 4k RAW files to work with. You can only shoot say 5-8 minutes at at time and there is no video out. OK for commercials/films rights. Cost? I say 5K-6K without lens - same sensor as the 5DMKII with a new faster processors. If you want more storage - modular add on drive systems like Red If you want 2K, 4K and all the typical things you expect from a video camera, the next line of professional Canon HD video camera would do it and probably cost about 10-12K. Difference being but here you could record longer lengths (2-3 hours) and gear would interface with all things video that we are used to. Aimed at the wedding/news guy, aspiring film maker Anyways - just brainstorming :) Paul

May 28th, 2009, 05:30 PM	#14
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	There are definitely ergonomic limitations for video with a DSLR. I can mount the camera to a shoulder rig, add a loupe, and use my left hand for focus (I do it directly; add rails and follow focus if you have the budget), but that makes all the buttons on the right side of the camera stupid to get to. My left hand can't go through/around the loupe, and my right hand is supporting the rig. Any time I need to control the right side of the camera, it jerks around. Maybe I need to change my rig for right hand focus control... __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 27th, 2009, 12:18 PM	#3
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Why the 1D? The DSLR form factor will forever be dedicated for a hybrid machine. Something a photo journalist would prefer. Dedicated videographers/filmmakers will always prefer a more conventional camcorder body. No way Canon will put 4K RAW in a 1D series DSLR body. It's wasted effort. I don't know why would anyone even dream for such a device. You'll have better luck with a rumored APS-C Canon camera supporting RAW and 4K.

May 28th, 2009, 03:52 PM	#7
Jamey Gigliagi Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Harrisburg, PA Posts: 25	I dont think it is a question of if Canon will release a dslr with 4k raw video as the video and photography markets are converging on the same hardware. Sure, they may continue to make two versions, or, if we are lucky, will make it like the upcomming red systems where you buy the sensor and it attaches to various body adapters for video and still photography. All they would have to do is develop an addon storage unit with the required bandwidth and they could add 4k capabilites to their next camera. Really, the only differences between a video camera and a still camera is the resulting file type, which resides in software. If the engineers at Canon (or Nikon) are really lazy, they could even just give you the option to take stills at 24fps and tell you to put the files onto a timeline yourself. Assuming that you are not doing live work, this is perfectly fine.