EOS 5D Mk. II Upgrade Wishlist Poll -- taking suggestions at DVinfo.net

Chris Hurd · March 12th, 2009, 09:39 AM

Two years ago on this site we ran a voting poll on our Canon XH Series forum soliciting suggestions for improving that camera system. We established what the voting options would be using this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...-wishlist.html and ran the actual poll here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...t-poll-v1.html.

We presented the results to the engineering team from Canon Inc. who designed the XH Series when we met them at NAB2007. Using feedback from DV Info Net readers, Canon Inc. incorporated a large number of the items we submitted into the XL H and XH Series updates which followed in 2008 (including the single most commonly requested change to the XH series; OIS On / Off mappable to Custom Key).

We've done this in the past as well, with similarly good results, for the Canon XL2 Wishlist. So, considering the popularity of the EOS 5D Mk. II and all of the potential it holds if only some things about it were changed and improved, it seems like the right time to do another voting poll. And yes, I will hand-deliver it to the right people at Canon Inc., or failing that, at least to the upper echelon at Canon USA.

I'm reluctant to call it a "firmware" wish list though, because frankly I'm not convinced that one of the most commonly requested changes, the addition of 24p and 25p frame rates, can be accomplished by a firmware update (I think it most likely calls for a hardware change; most likely an update to the Digic IV processor itself).

Therefore I'd like to couch this as "what are your desired changes without radically altering the D-SLR body," purposefully limiting the poll to suggestions which improve the EOS 5D Mk. II without altering its D-SLR form factor. I think we can all agree that ideally an entirely new camera system, designed on an ergonomic basis specifically for video, would be the best thing to happen (think Canon XL or XH with the 5D2's full-frame sensor)... but what I'm after here are suggestions which could result in a *relatively* prompt change (i.e., well within a year) to the 5D2 itself, as a D-SLR. Meaning, there's not much room on a D-SLR body for XLR or Mini-XLR input jacks, but improving the audio quality with a controllable compressor and limiter is certainly feasible... as is offering a menu option to re-configure the AV output jack as a headphone audio monitor.

Within this scope, what sort of changes and improvements would you like to see? We'll probably offer at least a dozen choices (our XH wish list had 22) and allow four choices per voter (most likely the most popular will be full manual control in video mode, followed by three more of your choosing).

We'll start the poll and open it up for voting as soon as there's some consensus on what those feature set changes and upgrades should be... here's your chance to provide your input!

Michael Friedman · March 12th, 2009, 09:44 AM

Thanks Chris! Great idea.

I'll make it easy. Aperture Priority mode in video.

Chris Hurd · March 12th, 2009, 09:49 AM

Here's an earlier thread on the upgrade topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...nge-these.html

My top two suggestions were:

1. Menu option to re-purpose the AV output jack as a stereo headphone jack,
for live monitoring of audio recording, per the entire Canon VIXIA camcorder line.

2. Option for manual audio level control (simple, ganged L+R, as on the consumer level VIXIA camcorders)

...but there's a lot more within that discussion.

Dylan Couper · March 12th, 2009, 09:49 AM

*Manual control of ISO in video mode
*Manual control of aperture in video mode
*Manual control of shutter speed in video mode
*Cupholders.

(cupholders may be too extensive an upgrade, how about audio out through the A/V port for headphones)

Min Lee · March 12th, 2009, 09:55 AM

I agreed with others on manual controls.

I second what Chris said, disable AGC and allow the AV jack to be use for headphones.

Peer Landa · March 12th, 2009, 10:00 AM

Besides cupholders, I'll vote for expanded recoding time (file size).

By the way, Chris, nice initiative!

-- peer

Dylan Couper · March 12th, 2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Couper

*Manual control of ISO in video mode
*Manual control of aperture in video mode
*Manual control of shutter speed in video mode
*Cupholders.

(cupholders may be too extensive an upgrade, how about audio out through the A/V port for headphones)

Chris, i just realized you said audio out through the A/V port as well, so I'm changing mine to add:
* Switch between full auto and full manual video mode.

Matthew Roddy · March 12th, 2009, 10:48 AM

1) Manual shutter control in video mode
2) Manual ISO control in video mode (I'm good with my Nikon lenses)
3) Manual control of audio levels + headphone out

(Edit: I was going for what I considered to be "realistic." After reading Chris B's post below, if we can ask for anything, I like his list.)

Chris Barcellos · March 12th, 2009, 10:52 AM

1. Full manual control over ISO, shutter speed, and fstop (iris) selection.

2. Audio monitoring switch as was done with the HV20/30/40 models allowing AV to switch to to Headphone monitoring.

3. on screen sound monitoring levels display

4. Full manual control over sound levels.

5. Live HD viewing via HDMI- not reduced to sd at commencement of shooting.

6. Zebras with setting for 70-100%

7. Windshield wipers to keep the imager clean.

I know this is a bit OT, but since you will be talking to Mr. Canon, have him design an attachable LCD that plugs into video out that can be adjusted to different angles, and maybe have a hoodman attached too to double as a viewfinder- like we see on the Sony EX3...

David Koo · March 12th, 2009, 04:27 PM

A "swivel" LCD screen...

Van Styles · March 12th, 2009, 04:43 PM

A ffwd & rewind button to search through long clips. The whole first fame,last frame,next frame,previous frame is a little frustrating when I want to search the clip quickly.

Chris Hurd · March 12th, 2009, 05:09 PM

What if the next frame / previous frame had the capability for shuttle search forward and reverse by holding the button down.

Jon Fairhurst · March 12th, 2009, 05:47 PM

Great suggestions.

Let's add...
* Video appropriate auto-focus
* A momentary auto-focus feature that is live-video friendly
* Exposure lock should toggle
* Press and hold exposure lock for a momentary auto-exposure function. It should have a fairly long time constant, so you could release the button early, if the camera tries to go too far. The goals should be to hold the gain within, say 100 ISO and 1000 ISO, and to adjust shutter speed, if at all, as a last resort.
* Speaking of shutter speeds, I'd like finer control. It seems to jump from 1/45 to 1/80. I want 1/60 for 30p video.
* Read all lines from the sensor and filter for no aliasing.

To get crazy, we could add...
* Motorized zoom on special video lenses. (The camera-lens interface would need some new features.)
* A way to remotely control zoom, focus, settings...
* Selectable, loadable settings on a smaller memory card
* Overcrank! Undercrank!
* Timecode
* Built-in ND filters, maybe in the special video lenses

Okay, the crazy features belong in a video division camera that uses a FF35 or S35 sensor, rather than the 5D MkIII. The new video lens interface would be compatible with Canon EF lenses as well as new 35mm "V" series lenses. The "V" series lenses would fit Canon DSLRs as well as the new video camera bodies.

Daniel Browning · March 12th, 2009, 05:50 PM

My top four:

Manual control of shutter, aperture, and ISO.
Record longer than 12 minutes by starting a new file at 4 GB limit.
Manual control of audio gain.
Option to re-configure the AV output jack as a headphone audio monitor.

Lower priority:

Option to truly disable noise reduction (currently NR is applied even when set to "off")
LCD Display of audio levels, focal length, exposure index bar, and I.S. indicator.
Move the hidden "dead pixel remap" feature from "manual sensor clean" to its own menu item.
Ability to toggle exposure lock
Zebras
RGB histogram
Peaking
24p

Pie-in-the-sky dreaming:

Magnification while recording.
Focus distance.
Live HDMI output of 720p or 1080p.
Live composite output of 480psf anamorphic 16:9.
Read the entire sensor instead of skipping two out of three lines.
Improved read-reset (skew, wobble, jello, etc.).
Faster contrast-detect autofocus

Stills-mode only requests:

Make raw RGB histograms available (gamma-only, no white balance or picture profile).
Allow metadata-based ISO settings (i.e. 5 stops more highlight headroom with metadata ISO 25600 vs the current implementation).
Auto ISO in Manual mode and with flash.
Permit the photographer to set bit depth per ISO settings (i.e. 12 bits for ISO 100, 8 bits for ISO 25600).
Offer simple nonlinear formats for visually lossless compression (but without the posterization in NEF caused by bad LUT and matrix math).

Daniel Browning · March 12th, 2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

* Speaking of shutter speeds, I'd like finer control. It seems to jump from 1/45 to 1/80. I want 1/60 for 30p video.

Good one. I could probably live with just 1/45 and 1/80 if I had to (at least it would be the same from shot to shot).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

To get crazy, we could add...new video lens interface would be compatible with Canon EF lenses as well as new 35mm "V" series lenses.

That is a really cool idea. Canon could even make some lightweight and inexpensive 20X zooms if the maximum aperture was f/11 or so.

March 12th, 2009, 09:39 AM	#1
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	EOS 5D Mk. II Upgrade Wishlist Poll -- taking suggestions Two years ago on this site we ran a voting poll on our Canon XH Series forum soliciting suggestions for improving that camera system. We established what the voting options would be using this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...-wishlist.html and ran the actual poll here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-...t-poll-v1.html. We presented the results to the engineering team from Canon Inc. who designed the XH Series when we met them at NAB2007. Using feedback from DV Info Net readers, Canon Inc. incorporated a large number of the items we submitted into the XL H and XH Series updates which followed in 2008 (including the single most commonly requested change to the XH series; OIS On / Off mappable to Custom Key). We've done this in the past as well, with similarly good results, for the Canon XL2 Wishlist. So, considering the popularity of the EOS 5D Mk. II and all of the potential it holds if only some things about it were changed and improved, it seems like the right time to do another voting poll. And yes, I will hand-deliver it to the right people at Canon Inc., or failing that, at least to the upper echelon at Canon USA. I'm reluctant to call it a "firmware" wish list though, because frankly I'm not convinced that one of the most commonly requested changes, the addition of 24p and 25p frame rates, can be accomplished by a firmware update (I think it most likely calls for a hardware change; most likely an update to the Digic IV processor itself). Therefore I'd like to couch this as "what are your desired changes without radically altering the D-SLR body," purposefully limiting the poll to suggestions which improve the EOS 5D Mk. II without altering its D-SLR form factor. I think we can all agree that ideally an entirely new camera system, designed on an ergonomic basis specifically for video, would be the best thing to happen (think Canon XL or XH with the 5D2's full-frame sensor)... but what I'm after here are suggestions which could result in a relatively prompt change (i.e., well within a year) to the 5D2 itself, as a D-SLR. Meaning, there's not much room on a D-SLR body for XLR or Mini-XLR input jacks, but improving the audio quality with a controllable compressor and limiter is certainly feasible... as is offering a menu option to re-configure the AV output jack as a headphone audio monitor. Within this scope, what sort of changes and improvements would you like to see? We'll probably offer at least a dozen choices (our XH wish list had 22) and allow four choices per voter (most likely the most popular will be full manual control in video mode, followed by three more of your choosing). We'll start the poll and open it up for voting as soon as there's some consensus on what those feature set changes and upgrades should be... here's your chance to provide your input! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 12th, 2009, 09:44 AM	#2
Michael Friedman Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Los Angeles, USA Posts: 57	Thanks Chris! Great idea. I'll make it easy. Aperture Priority mode in video. __________________ http://www.michaelfriedman.org/

March 12th, 2009, 09:49 AM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Here's an earlier thread on the upgrade topic: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos...nge-these.html My top two suggestions were: 1. Menu option to re-purpose the AV output jack as a stereo headphone jack, for live monitoring of audio recording, per the entire Canon VIXIA camcorder line. 2. Option for manual audio level control (simple, ganged L+R, as on the consumer level VIXIA camcorders) ...but there's a lot more within that discussion. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 12th, 2009, 09:49 AM	#4
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	Manual control of ISO in video mode Manual control of aperture in video mode Manual control of shutter speed in video mode Cupholders. (cupholders may be too extensive an upgrade, how about audio out through the A/V port for headphones) __________________ Need to rent camera gear in Vancouver BC? Check me out at camerarentalsvancouver.com

March 12th, 2009, 10:00 AM	#6
Peer Landa Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Norwegian lost in California Posts: 890	Besides cupholders, I'll vote for expanded recoding time (file size). By the way, Chris, nice initiative! -- peer __________________ www.NoPEER.com

March 12th, 2009, 09:55 AM	#5
Min Lee Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 200	I agreed with others on manual controls. I second what Chris said, disable AGC and allow the AV jack to be use for headphones.

March 12th, 2009, 10:48 AM	#8
Matthew Roddy Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Riverside, Ca Posts: 307	1) Manual shutter control in video mode 2) Manual ISO control in video mode (I'm good with my Nikon lenses) 3) Manual control of audio levels + headphone out (Edit: I was going for what I considered to be "realistic." After reading Chris B's post below, if we can ask for anything, I like his list.)

March 12th, 2009, 10:52 AM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	1. Full manual control over ISO, shutter speed, and fstop (iris) selection. 2. Audio monitoring switch as was done with the HV20/30/40 models allowing AV to switch to to Headphone monitoring. 3. on screen sound monitoring levels display 4. Full manual control over sound levels. 5. Live HD viewing via HDMI- not reduced to sd at commencement of shooting. 6. Zebras with setting for 70-100% 7. Windshield wipers to keep the imager clean. I know this is a bit OT, but since you will be talking to Mr. Canon, have him design an attachable LCD that plugs into video out that can be adjusted to different angles, and maybe have a hoodman attached too to double as a viewfinder- like we see on the Sony EX3... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

March 12th, 2009, 04:27 PM	#10
David Koo Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 51	A "swivel" LCD screen...

March 12th, 2009, 04:43 PM	#11
Van Styles New Boot Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Los Angeles,Ca Posts: 15	A ffwd & rewind button to search through long clips. The whole first fame,last frame,next frame,previous frame is a little frustrating when I want to search the clip quickly.

March 12th, 2009, 05:09 PM	#12
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	What if the next frame / previous frame had the capability for shuttle search forward and reverse by holding the button down. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 12th, 2009, 05:47 PM	#13
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Great suggestions. Let's add... * Video appropriate auto-focus * A momentary auto-focus feature that is live-video friendly * Exposure lock should toggle * Press and hold exposure lock for a momentary auto-exposure function. It should have a fairly long time constant, so you could release the button early, if the camera tries to go too far. The goals should be to hold the gain within, say 100 ISO and 1000 ISO, and to adjust shutter speed, if at all, as a last resort. * Speaking of shutter speeds, I'd like finer control. It seems to jump from 1/45 to 1/80. I want 1/60 for 30p video. * Read all lines from the sensor and filter for no aliasing. To get crazy, we could add... * Motorized zoom on special video lenses. (The camera-lens interface would need some new features.) * A way to remotely control zoom, focus, settings... * Selectable, loadable settings on a smaller memory card * Overcrank! Undercrank! * Timecode * Built-in ND filters, maybe in the special video lenses Okay, the crazy features belong in a video division camera that uses a FF35 or S35 sensor, rather than the 5D MkIII. The new video lens interface would be compatible with Canon EF lenses as well as new 35mm "V" series lenses. The "V" series lenses would fit Canon DSLRs as well as the new video camera bodies. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 12th, 2009, 05:50 PM	#14
Daniel Browning Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 949	My top four: Manual control of shutter, aperture, and ISO. Record longer than 12 minutes by starting a new file at 4 GB limit. Manual control of audio gain. Option to re-configure the AV output jack as a headphone audio monitor. Lower priority: Option to truly disable noise reduction (currently NR is applied even when set to "off") LCD Display of audio levels, focal length, exposure index bar, and I.S. indicator. Move the hidden "dead pixel remap" feature from "manual sensor clean" to its own menu item. Ability to toggle exposure lock Zebras RGB histogram Peaking 24p Pie-in-the-sky dreaming: Magnification while recording. Focus distance. Live HDMI output of 720p or 1080p. Live composite output of 480psf anamorphic 16:9. Read the entire sensor instead of skipping two out of three lines. Improved read-reset (skew, wobble, jello, etc.). Faster contrast-detect autofocus Stills-mode only requests: Make raw RGB histograms available (gamma-only, no white balance or picture profile). Allow metadata-based ISO settings (i.e. 5 stops more highlight headroom with metadata ISO 25600 vs the current implementation). Auto ISO in Manual mode and with flash. Permit the photographer to set bit depth per ISO settings (i.e. 12 bits for ISO 100, 8 bits for ISO 25600). Offer simple nonlinear formats for visually lossless compression (but without the posterization in NEF caused by bad LUT and matrix math).