Canon, where oh where art thou? at DVinfo.net

Jacques Mersereau · April 24th, 2011, 08:19 AM

Yup, I'm getting out my crop and gonna start to beat on this ol' dead CANON horse once again.

As most of us are aware, there exists a chasm between RED and say the EX3 * (*Timur footnote).
The Sony F3 has appeared, and I would assume since they are back ordered at BH, that F3s have found a place and are selling. I love the idea of buying an F3, and it produces the images I want,
but since it does not meet the new DCI spec (2K@48fps min), it doesn't make my 'must to into debt' to have list.
RED? $25K for a R1 - $58K for EPIC?!!! (What happened JJ? $8K price increase? Too much - Yikes!)
SCARLET? So far, it doesn't blow my skirt up.

I call out to CANON, there is a BIG MARKET for a camera here and a place to sell YOUR GLASS!
WHEN, OH WHEN are you going to step up? You too can sell a camera _body_ for $13K and come out with a new line of Cine Lens to make lots more money.

The market is waiting.

Chris Medico · April 24th, 2011, 08:32 AM

From what I understand you'll be able to record 1080p60 with the F3 using an external recorder and dual link SDI.

Jacques Mersereau · April 24th, 2011, 08:53 AM

That would be nice, but this is the first I have heard of it.
Even if true it would still not meet the 2K resolution spec.
So, I would repeat my call to Canon to _deliver_ a 35mm video camera similar to the RED ONE.
This is certainly within Canon's capability.

Chris Medico · April 24th, 2011, 01:49 PM

1080p is only 80 pixels short of 2k. I doubt you would be penalized for shooting 1080p. Its 1.92k instead of 2k.

There is something coming from canon. No amount of questioning at NAB could get a straight answer out of them.

Based on how they did answer my questions I expect it will be 1.92k aka 1080p.

Charles Papert · April 24th, 2011, 02:01 PM

1920x1080 24p will surely be acceptable for the next three years, which is pretty much the lifespan of a camera body these days.

Brian Drysdale · April 25th, 2011, 02:44 AM

The variation in the screen tabs (or screen size) at the theatre would cover those 80 pixels. Many feature films are shot 1080p, so I wouldn't worry too much about those pixels.

The only large sensor camera Canon have shown is a 4k hair dryer styled design, which could've just been a mock up.

In the end, I'm not sure that Canon can make a large sensor video camera for less than other manufacturers. Especially if you want specialised frame rates like 48, which seem to be used for 3D at present.

Lawrence Bansbach · April 27th, 2011, 05:54 PM

The hairdryer camera didn't have a particularly large sensor. If I'm not mistaken, it was 2/3-inch, which seems a little small for 4K.

Brian Drysdale · April 29th, 2011, 02:03 AM

Sorry, 2/3"

http://www.dvinfo.net/optical-scienc...anon-expo.html

I imagine the trade off for 4k will be sensitivity and noise.

Jacques Mersereau · April 29th, 2011, 01:45 PM

Perfect, a turtle race between RED EPIC S and CANON 4K. Maybe there's another 35mm high res. contender out there working away that could scoop the market - JVC, SI, Nikon, Hitachi, Hassleblad, or ?

Lawrence Bansbach · May 1st, 2011, 10:55 AM

JVC has been showing early prototypes of what it calls 4K2K, which is not real 4K but actually QuadHD (3,840 x 2,160). It's purportedly working on consumer (think smallish-sensor) models. Other than the somewhat silly hairdryer concept, Canon has been pretty quiet lately about its forward-looking tech.

Glen Vandermolen · May 28th, 2011, 06:08 PM

Speaking of which, whatever happened to the JVC Falcon Brid?

Robert Turchick · May 28th, 2011, 07:51 PM

Ahhh...finally. Someone else as annoyed as I am that Canon hasn't stepped up in a big way. With Nikon, panny and Sony joining the dslr race, I think that ship is sailing fast. Those of us who have had to deal with moire and aliasing issues are ready to move up to the fs100/f3/af100 but have tons of Canon glass need a solution better than a third party adapter! And I stopped holding my breath for Red many years ago. I don't even care about the price increases with the scarlet/epic s. Just release the damn thing and sell a crapload of them!!!
Canon needs to do two things...release the big brother to the xf300/305 with interchangeable lens options but same sensor/codec...say for $5k body only.

And release a cinema camera based on the 5D sensor or larger. Needs to be 3k or 4k capable and 4:4:4. Make it work with existing dslr glass but then introduce a line of lenses (set of primes and a couple of zooms) specific to the camera. Have it record lower bit rates and sizes to cf but have a slot for removeable ss drives for full blown quality. Make the body $10k, with set of lenses and ss drive, $20k.
It's a big dream but we have to start somewhere!!

Lawrence Bansbach · May 30th, 2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Turchick

And release a cinema camera based on the 5D sensor or larger.

I don't understand the fascination with full-frame 35 mm. It certainly isn't like regular 35-mm film's imaging area. It's comparable to VistaVision. I would think that for most applications, DOF would be too shallow.

Robert Turchick · May 30th, 2011, 11:04 AM

I'm not a technical person so don't know the ramifications of using the 5D sensor in a cinema camera...seems that the extra size would be needed for 4k. And to me I just wanted to rant about Canon being behind the game again...BUT...they were also late in my opinion bringing out the XF series. Sony and Panny had their cams in that genre out long before...Canon did it right though and maybe that's what's happening here. They may wait to see what the af100, fs100, and f3 concerns are and then kick Sony and Panny's butts!!

Lawrence Bansbach · May 30th, 2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Turchick

I'm not a technical person so don't know the ramifications of using the 5D sensor in a cinema camera...seems that the extra size would be needed for 4k. And to me I just wanted to rant about Canon being behind the game again...BUT...they were also late in my opinion bringing out the XF series. Sony and Panny had their cams in that genre out long before...

It doesn't seem the extra size is necessary, given that the 7D's APS-C-sized sensor is already more than 5K
(5,184 x 3,456).

Quote:

Canon did it right though and maybe that's what's happening here. They may wait to see what the af100, fs100, and f3 concerns are and then kick Sony and Panny's butts!!

The cameras you mentioned are all 1080p, so they obviously don't meet your >3K requirement. Also, while the FS100 supposedly can do 4:4:4, its output is only 8-bit, as is that of the AF100, which additionally can do "only" 4:2:2. I expect to see prosumer 4K within a few years. As mentioned earlier, JVC may come close with its 4K2K (QuadHD) offering, but it looks to be a smallish sensor. I just don't expect Canon to be first, although I really can't adequately explain why Canon is so slow.

April 24th, 2011, 08:19 AM	#1
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Canon, where oh where art thou? Yup, I'm getting out my crop and gonna start to beat on this ol' dead CANON horse once again. As most of us are aware, there exists a chasm between RED and say the EX3 * (*Timur footnote). The Sony F3 has appeared, and I would assume since they are back ordered at BH, that F3s have found a place and are selling. I love the idea of buying an F3, and it produces the images I want, but since it does not meet the new DCI spec (2K@48fps min), it doesn't make my 'must to into debt' to have list. RED? $25K for a R1 - $58K for EPIC?!!! (What happened JJ? $8K price increase? Too much - Yikes!) SCARLET? So far, it doesn't blow my skirt up. I call out to CANON, there is a BIG MARKET for a camera here and a place to sell YOUR GLASS! WHEN, OH WHEN are you going to step up? You too can sell a camera _body_ for $13K and come out with a new line of Cine Lens to make lots more money. The market is waiting. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

April 24th, 2011, 08:32 AM	#2
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? From what I understand you'll be able to record 1080p60 with the F3 using an external recorder and dual link SDI. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

April 24th, 2011, 08:53 AM	#3
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? That would be nice, but this is the first I have heard of it. Even if true it would still not meet the 2K resolution spec. So, I would repeat my call to Canon to _deliver_ a 35mm video camera similar to the RED ONE. This is certainly within Canon's capability. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

April 24th, 2011, 01:49 PM	#4
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? 1080p is only 80 pixels short of 2k. I doubt you would be penalized for shooting 1080p. Its 1.92k instead of 2k. There is something coming from canon. No amount of questioning at NAB could get a straight answer out of them. Based on how they did answer my questions I expect it will be 1.92k aka 1080p. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

April 24th, 2011, 02:01 PM	#5
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? 1920x1080 24p will surely be acceptable for the next three years, which is pretty much the lifespan of a camera body these days. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

April 25th, 2011, 02:44 AM	#6
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? The variation in the screen tabs (or screen size) at the theatre would cover those 80 pixels. Many feature films are shot 1080p, so I wouldn't worry too much about those pixels. The only large sensor camera Canon have shown is a 4k hair dryer styled design, which could've just been a mock up. In the end, I'm not sure that Canon can make a large sensor video camera for less than other manufacturers. Especially if you want specialised frame rates like 48, which seem to be used for 3D at present.

April 27th, 2011, 05:54 PM	#7
Lawrence Bansbach Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 295	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? The hairdryer camera didn't have a particularly large sensor. If I'm not mistaken, it was 2/3-inch, which seems a little small for 4K.

April 29th, 2011, 02:03 AM	#8
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? Sorry, 2/3" http://www.dvinfo.net/optical-scienc...anon-expo.html I imagine the trade off for 4k will be sensitivity and noise.

April 29th, 2011, 01:45 PM	#9
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? Perfect, a turtle race between RED EPIC S and CANON 4K. Maybe there's another 35mm high res. contender out there working away that could scoop the market - JVC, SI, Nikon, Hitachi, Hassleblad, or ? __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

May 1st, 2011, 10:55 AM	#10
Lawrence Bansbach Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 295	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? JVC has been showing early prototypes of what it calls 4K2K, which is not real 4K but actually QuadHD (3,840 x 2,160). It's purportedly working on consumer (think smallish-sensor) models. Other than the somewhat silly hairdryer concept, Canon has been pretty quiet lately about its forward-looking tech.

May 28th, 2011, 06:08 PM	#11
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? Speaking of which, whatever happened to the JVC Falcon Brid?

May 28th, 2011, 07:51 PM	#12
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? Ahhh...finally. Someone else as annoyed as I am that Canon hasn't stepped up in a big way. With Nikon, panny and Sony joining the dslr race, I think that ship is sailing fast. Those of us who have had to deal with moire and aliasing issues are ready to move up to the fs100/f3/af100 but have tons of Canon glass need a solution better than a third party adapter! And I stopped holding my breath for Red many years ago. I don't even care about the price increases with the scarlet/epic s. Just release the damn thing and sell a crapload of them!!! Canon needs to do two things...release the big brother to the xf300/305 with interchangeable lens options but same sensor/codec...say for $5k body only. And release a cinema camera based on the 5D sensor or larger. Needs to be 3k or 4k capable and 4:4:4. Make it work with existing dslr glass but then introduce a line of lenses (set of primes and a couple of zooms) specific to the camera. Have it record lower bit rates and sizes to cf but have a slot for removeable ss drives for full blown quality. Make the body $10k, with set of lenses and ss drive, $20k. It's a big dream but we have to start somewhere!! __________________ The older I get, the better I was!

May 30th, 2011, 11:04 AM	#14
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: Canon, where oh where art thou? I'm not a technical person so don't know the ramifications of using the 5D sensor in a cinema camera...seems that the extra size would be needed for 4k. And to me I just wanted to rant about Canon being behind the game again...BUT...they were also late in my opinion bringing out the XF series. Sony and Panny had their cams in that genre out long before...Canon did it right though and maybe that's what's happening here. They may wait to see what the af100, fs100, and f3 concerns are and then kick Sony and Panny's butts!! __________________ The older I get, the better I was!