DV-L Mon, 30 Apr 2001 Volume 1 : Number 841
In this issue:
Re: Length of y/c cable - followup question
Re: color bars/NTSC monitor confusion
RE:iView software is great & thanks.
Re: Dell 420
Re: Pana dvd drive compatible software at NAB
JVC GR-DVL300U and 1394 Firewire
Re: JVC GR-DVL300U and 1394 Firewire
Video dynamic range of VX2000 vs XL1
Re: Compliments for Premiere 6.0
Re: DV to FireWire direct
Re: After Effects
Video dynamic range of VX2000 vs XL1
Re: Length of y/c cable - followup question
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
RE: Dell 420
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Re: FCP help
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Audio in Premier 6
Re: FCP help
Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
Re Audio S/N & quality
RE: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
RE: G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
RE: G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
Re: Re Audio S/N & quality
Re: Audio in Premier 6
Re: color bars/NTSC monitor confusion-J. Jackman
Re: Re Audio S/N & quality
Re: Re Audio S/N & quality - review of HHB PortaDisc MDP500
Re Audio S/N & quality
Re: Audio in Premier 6
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:03:19 +0100
From: "Perry"
To: "DV-L"
Subject: Re: Length of y/c cable - followup question
Message-ID:
>How do I tell a good cable from a cheap one?<
Once you have them, I guess this answer is obvious, but in the shop it may
be more tricky. Studio system installers will buy cable by the mile to an
industry standard, but a shrink wrapped cable in your local store could be
any old junk. I've noticed that the same obsession as afflicted the hi-fi
business is being exploited but this is nonsense.
>Good place to find them where quality is reliable?<
Difficult for me to say being based in UK!
>By the "twin BNC" type, I assume you mean running two BNC cables with a BNC
to DIN adapter - am I assuming correctly?<
Yes, but I would make up my own adaptor to avoid too many converters.
>You refer to "properly terminated broadcast type video cable." I'm not
clear
what this means. If the cable is plugged into the source or record deck,
isn't that fully terminated?<
It depends! Lots of consumer based kit don't terminate with the correct
75ohm. On long runs this can promote reflections and other problems.
>Finally, I understand the need for matching the length of cables, but what
is
the margin for error? Is within a half inch sufficiently similar?<
I don't have a suitable reference book to hand that give the delay per foot.
Since we are concerned here with Y/C differential delay I wouldn't think it
was particularly critical.
One word of warning: I tried to use the Y/C output of my Sony DHR-1000 deck
for the first time when it was installed in my system, and it needed about
5m of cable to reach. I had a 10m Y/C cable to hand (typical video store
type) and sure enough it gave horrible differential errors and some
'ringing' on the edges. I spent a good while making up a decent connection
from some cannibalised BNC cables - result was identical! Turned out I had a
faulty Y/C output on the deck!
Moral - check your picture quality first on a short connection, then put the
long one in and check you cannot see any difference.
Perry Mitchell
Video Consultant
http://www.perrybits.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:03:22 +0100
From: "Perry"
To: "DV-L"
Subject: Re: color bars/NTSC monitor confusion
Message-ID:
The problem is that using bars to calibrate a single monitor takes us only
to the starting blocks. It makes no allowance of viewing color temperature,
screen phosphors and small misadjustments of the monitor tracking. All it
does is set the correct black level and channel gains. These are important
but limited.
In my edit suite I currently have 4 computer monitors, an industrial grade
video monitor, and a Grade 1 broadcast monitor. I can set them all up with
color bars and they don't match too badly. If I put a face on them, they all
look very different from each other! I set the industrial monitor to give me
the most attractive but neutral picture with a known well exposed and
balanced picture of a girl's face. I use this monitor because it matches
most of my clients' resources in the corporate sector, and is also close to
most domestic tv sets. I then try to match my main computer image monitor,
which I originally bought because it has video style phosphors. It never
looks quite the same but it is good enough to use for video image creation
in Photoshop etc. None of the other computer monitors come close to matching
but they are not used for critical image purposes. The grade 1 is aligned
professionally for me and kept as a reference for broadcast output.
What an editor needs is an accurate (ie sensitive) indication of color
balance so that he/she can be sure that the balance is correct.
Unfortunately we don't have an accurate ABSOLUTE color memory, but we have a
good relative color matching ability. What works for me is to put a known
good balanced face into one input of my video monitor and then switch
between a few suitable shots in my programme clips. This assesses whether
the clips all have a color bias that needs correcting. Thereafter, I only
worry about whether the edit cuts appear to keep the same balance, since
this is where the viewer will notice any changes. If you start making
changes to lots of shots it is important to go back to the original
reference shot to make sure that you don't start drifting away. If you don't
have twin inputs, then you can periodically (temporarily!) cut your
reference shot into your programme and check that the cut looks OK.
While we are at it, a few other hints. Don't edit in the complete dark or
you'll easily lose any sort of color balance reference. Ideally you want a
gently lit and neutral (grey) environment of a similar color temperature to
your monitors, but in practice most folks get used to a much lower CT
background. I have an opaque Venetian blind which I adjust to let in just a
little (north) daylight. Set all the computer desktops to have a neutral
background color, it's amazing how many folk try to color balance with a
bright blue background! Lastly, ask third parties for advice as to how they
see your pictures, remember that video is a conjuring trick and VERY
dependent on the viewer!
just my two penn'orth of course
Perry Mitchell
Video Consultant
http://www.perrybits.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:34:53 +0800
From: "Andy King"
To: "DV-L"
Subject: RE:iView software is great & thanks.
Message-ID: <001101c0d0a8$ce2fdbe0$e3d3e68b@oemcomputer>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Firstly thanks as always for one of the best lists on the web.
and...
One of the best things about iView is its ability to make catalogues =
from
imported folders of digital stills. (Various file formats.)
We often shoot on our Sony FSC505 during lunchtime concerts=20
and can import and have a slide show up and running within a few minutes
to show the student jazz ensembles we work with.
Its also great to show directors locations and props etc.
Very simple to teach for those of you have students.
Anyhoo there is always a down side ....
everyone wants to borrow the digicam!
Thank you to the person who recommended the AE & Cleaner lists.
(If anyone on the list is visiting Perth please feel free to drop by and =
attend a lunchtime concert on Tuesday or Wednesday. They're free.
See the link below and click on the Schedule Pic)
cheers
Andy King
AV Supervisor
WAAPA
Perth WA
http://larkrise.tripod.com/ =20
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Firstly thanks as always for one of the = best lists=20 on the web.
and...
One of the best things about iView is = its ability=20 to make catalogues from
imported folders of digital stills. = (Various file=20 formats.)
We often shoot on our Sony FSC505 = during lunchtime=20 concerts
and can import and have a slide = show up and=20 running within a few minutes
to show the student jazz = ensembles we work=20 with.
Its also great to show directors = locations and=20 props etc.
Very simple to teach for those of = you have=20 students.
Anyhoo there is always a down side=20 ....
everyone wants to borrow the = digicam!
Thank you to the person who recommended = the AE=20 & Cleaner lists.
(If anyone on the list is visiting = Perth please=20 feel free to drop by and
attend a lunchtime concert on Tuesday = or Wednesday.=20 They're free.
See the link below and click on the = Schedule=20 Pic)
cheers
Andy King
AV Supervisor
WAAPA
Perth WA
http://larkrise.tripod.com/ = ;=20
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0D0EB.D87656E0--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 09:35:33 -0400
From: Gary Bettan
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Dell 420
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010429093450.00d57100@pop3.cris.com>
At 09:17 PM 4/28/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Stephen, you are a lucky man to have your Matrox running in the
>420. Yours is the ONLY success story I have heard, andI was on
>the Dell boards a bunch before giving up.
Under Win2k there are still guys getting very good results with the latest
420s. Under Win ME & 98SE, nothing but trouble.
Gary
The Electronic Mailbox 800 323-2325
We Are The Desk Top Video Editing & Production Experts
http://www.videoguys.com Home of the Desk Top Video Handbook On Line
All DTV purchases come with our exclusive 30 day customer
assurance program and FREE Tech Support (516) 759-1615
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 07:05:54 -0700
From: "David L. Tosh"
To:
Subject: Re: Pana dvd drive compatible software at NAB
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010429065344.02a80dd0@mail.earthlink.net>
ADReiff@aol.com wrote:
>...Any of you guys/gals on the ground in (relatively speaking) in Vegas
>care to
>check it out for us?
>
>
I was there, talked to the people in the booth. The software is a Win98+
application that can convert a DV clip to interleaved MPEG2 and audio
streams suitable for DVD video. It also does the actual burn to the drive.
It really only handles one clip. It has no "authoring" to provide
navigation (titles, chapters, markers) nor can it combine multiple clips.
It really is an archiver-- one completely edited movie will be burned.
The Panasonic DVD drives in the booth were a Japanese model and a prototype
of the US model to be introduced later this year. The DVD is supposedly
capable of DVD-R/W or whatever it offical name of the re-writeable
capability will be called. The price of the drive comes in around $2800 -
less than the Pioneer 201 and more than the Pioneer A01 but has the
possibility of rewrite capability.
----
David Tosh
Engineer, Complete Post Hollywood, CA USA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 07:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chad McDaniel
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: JVC GR-DVL300U and 1394 Firewire
Message-ID: <20010429140312.99748.qmail@web11504.mail.yahoo.com>
I need help...badly!
I have my Dell running both win2k and windows ME. It has 512MB of RAM and 70gb
of disk storage. Its a PIII 866.
I just installed a 1394 firewire card model KW-1582V from Kuotech that they
said they will not support in the US eventhough I got it from
www.computergeeks.com online. It was only 40 bucks including shipping. The card
appears to be working fine. The camera appears to be working fine. The software
that came with the firewire card captures and makes avi's wonderfully.
My problem is I want to use this camera like a webcam and capture video at
320x240. I have the default windows wdm capture driver working with it, but
will only use the dvsd compression for some reason and only down to 640x480. I
need it to go smaller to 320x240.
My problem is I am not sure if its a problem with the card, the camera, or do I
just need to install a different compression method for the capture.
help!
I been working on this for over two days now...I really feel like an idiot. My
usb 3com homeconnet works fine. Do I need to unplug it and leave it unplugged?
I had hope to run both actually.
I have checked under my system information and I have a TON of compression avi
formats installed...but how do I tell my default windows capture wdm to use
them instead of the dvsd?
My only solution now is to buy another regular video capture card such as a
Winnov Videum AV. Maybe it will work?
KidShark
=====
KidShark,
World's Shortest Pool Hustler
kidshark@yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:14:07 -0400
From: Joe Parker
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: JVC GR-DVL300U and 1394 Firewire
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010429101244.01b2fe60@mail.speakeasy.org>
The quick answer is... forget it. If you want a webcam get a webcam.
>My problem is I want to use this camera like a webcam and capture video at
>320x240. I have the default windows wdm capture driver working with it, but
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:22:29 -0400
From: Geoff Amthor
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Video dynamic range of VX2000 vs XL1
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010429101109.01851d50@mail.mindspring.com>
I recently switched from an XL1 to a VX2000, mainly for portability
reasons. I never did a direct comparison test between the camcorders, but
it seems to me that the VX2000 has noticeably less video dynamic range than
does the XL1. I notice that I am finding it more difficult to avoid
overexposing highlights -- and when I try to underexpose the highlights,
the rest of the image is too dark.
I ran across the following comment in a web page on film look: "...since
CCD imagers' dynamic range is several stops less than negative film, unless
you can completely control your lighting ratio (through the appropriate use
of silks, HMIs, etc.), significant ranges of highlight and shadow detail
will inevitably be lost in daylight exteriors. Low key lighting, and scenes
photographed with contrast ratios no higher than the exposure dynamic range
of the specific camera head makes optimum use of the medium."
This comment seems to imply not only that the CCDs used in video have less
dynamic range than film, but that there is some significant variance in
dynamic range among specific CCDs and camera heads. This may also be a lens
issue, since lens can affect contrast.
I'd be interested in comments regarding general variance in dynamic range
among DV cameras, as well as any particular observations about the VX2000
and XL1, particularly a comparison of the two.
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:05:28 -0400
From: "aew"
To:
Subject: Re: Compliments for Premiere 6.0
Message-ID: <009001c0d0bd$d434cb80$9a109618@hala1.on.home.com>
Hey Nick saw your name on the premiere 6.0 start up splash. Good work from
you and your team on premiere6.0
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Schlott"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: Compliments for Premiere 6.0
> John -
>
> Thanks for the kind words.
>
> >(wow, the SMPTE color bars are right now!)
>
> Actually, John, you have yourself to thank for this.
>
> You'd posted a link on DV-L last May to your extremely well-written and
> helpful tirade about Premiere's color bars
> (http://www.greatdv.com/video/smptebars3.htm).
>
> I forwarded that link from DV-L to Adobe's ertwhile Eric Sanders, who
> promptly whacked Premiere's colorbars upside the head and fixed the color
> calibration of the bars. That change shipped with Premiere 6.
>
> So: kudos to you, John.
>
> And: kudos to this list for providing a forum for this kind (and all
kinds)
> of really useful stuff. Keep it coming!
>
> Kind regards,
> Nick
>
>
> -- (cut off when replying)-----------------
> This list is made possible by Lifetime DV-L Benefactors such as
http://www.promax.com, http://www.videoguys.com,
http://www.panasonic.com/broadcast and the contributions of its members.
>
> To contribute money: http://www.computervicestore.com/dvl.html
> All about DV-L, to subscribe & unsubscribe:
http://www.DVCentral.org/thelist.html
> DV-L archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DV-List/messages
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:25:19 +0200
From: Cedric Tineo
To: "DV L dvcentral.org"
Subject: Re: DV to FireWire direct
Message-ID:
Sorry, must have missed a message (or never received it).
What is the manufacturer of that device ? Any URL ?
I am very interested by anything that could simplify / speed up capture. I
saw the JVC Hard Disk recorder that you can plug on a DV-500 at NAB, but the
guys there explained that it works like a tape recorder, therefore capture
would happen at 1x speed, which is pretty uninteresting.
Ken Freed any additional info ?
Cedric
On 27.4.2001 18:03, "Christopher Van Nest" wrote:
> I think what was interesting (from the press release I read) was that its
> integration with the camera let it function unattended. For instance, your
> camera's record/pause button would tell the drive to start or stop capturing
> vs. just capturing a continuous live stream to a portable computer. Of
> course, this is how I interpreted the PR-- maybe we'll get more feedback
> from those who've seen it at NAB. But FWIW, I'd also like to see the price
> drop!
>
> -Christopher
> ____________________________
> Host/Producer FREESPORT-TV
> http://www.freesport-tv.com/
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joseph Karr O'Connor [mailto:josephoconnor@earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:49 AM
>> To: DV-L@DVCentral.org
>> Subject: Re: DV to FireWire direct
>>
>>
>> Bob Fisher wrote:
>>> I saw this device at NAB, it is basicly a small computer that
>>> does the work of taking DV in via firewire and recording it to
>>> a user supplied firewire hard drive. So it bypasses the capture
>>> process if this is what you need, you can use it as a disk
>>> recorder in a live setup also. I think it is going to cost
>>> about $2K.
>>
>> Mmmmmmmm... let's see now, I know another small computer which can
>> accomplish the same thing called a Sony Vaio starting around $1300. Or,
>> alternately, if you like variety, there's the iBook. I think the price
>> of that unit has to come down significantly.
>
> -- (cut off when replying)-----------------
> This list is made possible by Lifetime DV-L Benefactors such as
> http://www.promax.com, http://www.videoguys.com,
> http://www.panasonic.com/broadcast and the contributions of its members.
>
> To contribute money: http://www.computervicestore.com/dvl.html
> All about DV-L, to subscribe & unsubscribe:
> http://www.DVCentral.org/thelist.html
> DV-L archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DV-List/messages
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 09:05:04 -0700
From: Cory White
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: After Effects
Message-ID:
--============_-1223562189==_ma============
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You should also try the AE FreeMart. It's
got a TON of demos, tutorials and general good things to know.
-Cory
>I hope discussing After Effects is not outside the scope of this group.
>
>I Have just started to learn After Effects. I can see it will take sometime
>to even come close to taming this beast!
>
>Anyway, I hope somebody could help with the following questions:
>(1) I wanted to make some text glow - kinda like the start of the X-Files.
>Anybody know where to get a tutorial on this one, which I think is
>relatively simple...
>(2) I did a search on After Effects Listserv to see if their was a mailing
>list but the links that came up all seem to have expired. Anybody know of a
>list?
>
>Thanks in Advance,
>
>- Al Grant
>
>
--
"I like to think the moon is there even if I am not looking at it."
-Albert Einstein
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You should also try the AE FreeMart. It's got a TON of demos, tutorials and general good things to know.
-Cory
I hope discussing After Effects is not outside the scope of this group.
I Have just started to learn After Effects. I can see it will take sometime
to even come close to taming this beast!
Anyway, I hope somebody could help with the following questions:
(1) I wanted to make some text glow - kinda like the start of the X-Files.
Anybody know where to get a tutorial on this one, which I think is
relatively simple...
(2) I did a search on After Effects Listserv to see if their was a mailing
list but the links that came up all seem to have expired. Anybody know of a
list?
Thanks in Advance,
- Al Grant
--
"I like to think the moon is there even if I am not looking at it."
-Albert Einstein
--============_-1223562189==_ma============--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:48:12 +0100
From: "Perry"
To: "DV-L"
Subject: Video dynamic range of VX2000 vs XL1
Message-ID:
This is an enormous subject and could be discussed till the cows come home
(as my granny used to say). In short:
1) CCD imagers do indeed have less dynamic range than negative stock, but
effectively as much as a print shown in a theatre.
2) Consumer cameras are designed to look good without fill light, and the
shadow detail is severely limited to lower apparent noise.
3) Consumer cameras also have restricted 'knee' circuitry to compress and
preserve highlight detail.
I am not familiar with the XL-1, but certainly these are two areas where say
the DSR-300 would show clear superiority over the VX-2000.
The ironic thing is that good quality production will use lighting, make-up
and set design to lower required dynamic range so it's a double whammy!
Perry Mitchell
Video Consultant
http://www.perrybits.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:19:36 -0700
From: "Robert C. Fisher"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Length of y/c cable - followup question
Message-ID: <3AEC4D27.6A12C43E@pacbell.net>
Triglyph@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks for the information on y/c cables, but some questions:
>
> How do I tell a good cable from a cheap one?
> Good place to find them where quality is reliable?
BiTronics caries high quality cables and addapters, and not too expensive. Go to reputable electronics stores(not Radio Shack).
>
>
> By the "twin BNC" type, I assume you mean running two BNC cables with a BNC
> to DIN adapter - am I assuming correctly? (This sounds like a good thing for
> my situation as I have drawers full of BNC cables left over from my old 3/4"
> Umatic setup.) I also assume that I will be able to find an adapter
> (< short SHVS DIN to 2 BNC adapter.>>) that separates the y from the c.
Running two lengths of Belden 8281(or similar) or the flexible version of this will give you the best results. BiTronics has Svideo miniDin to BNC addapters in various lenths for approx
$20.00 each. I would go for a 1 ft addapter and then run the BNC. BiTronics has Mogami addapters which are very good quality and available in either Female or Male BNC connections.
>
>
> You refer to "properly terminated broadcast type video cable." I'm not clear
> what this means. If the cable is plugged into the source or record deck,
> isn't that fully terminated?
I would think they mean mechanical termination(BNC connector) not electrical.
>
>
> Finally, I undestand the need for matching the length of cables, but what is
> the margin for error? Is within a half inch sufficently similar?
I should be easy to make cables closer in length than 1/2 in. I would go for a good crimper and coax striper so you can make your own cables. This will run to about $100 but worth it when
you have to make custom cables for various jobs.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Blain
Cheers
Bob Fisher
FishPond Digital
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:52:53 -0400
From: "Mike Woodworth"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
Message-ID: <200104291753.NAA20735@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
----------
>From: rob@gregorybrowne.com
>To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
>Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
>Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001, 10:04 PM
>
> On 28 Apr 2001, at 20:32, Geoff Amthor wrote:
>
>> Has anyone performed tests and
>> can comment on the relative quality of any of these Sony products to
>> each other or to DAT or MiniDisc recorders?
>
> I haven't performed any tests personally, but sound guru Jay Rose
> suggests using a Sony minidisc recorder because of their stable
> playing/recording speed, which is important, obviously, for syncing
> purposes.
Yes, any digital recording device will have consistent sync... due to the
fact they are all timed off crystal oscillators. DAT, MiniDisc, ADAT, all
will sync fine.
>
> As for sound quality, he says it's just below DAT or CD and
> certainly better than most DV cams. He suggests either slating
> your scenes or simply recording from the DV cam as well, using
> the DV version as a guide for syncing.
Sound quality is where all these formats differ, and in feature set. Dat
stores your audio sampled to digital at 48kHz (many are switchable but this
is the default). MiniDisc captures at the same sample rate I believe, but
it then passes the audio data through a compression routine similar to the
MP3 codec. It does not sound as good -- but that difference is dependant
upon what you are recording.
If you are shooting something with a large dynamic range and lots of
high/low frequency power, like a symphonic concert, the differences will
easily be apparent listening with a pair of good headphones. The
differences will be far less apparent on standard dialog - standard clean
dialog. You will start to hear the differences in quality again when you
start trying to record dialog with strong background noise.
And then we get to your final distribution of this audio. Is this final
video going to be played in theatres, on good home stereos, regular TVs, the
web? As you go down this scale, you begin to erase any apparent differences
between the two formats.
From a quality standpoint I'd feel comfortable using MiniDisc to record
clean audio tracks meant for any distribution technique. For effects
recording (explosions, gun shots, tv static, ect. ) or music (like a live
concert) I'd feel comfortable using MiniDisc for anything but theatrical
released productions.
>
> For the price, I don't think you can beat a minidisc. The sound
> quality may be slightly inferior, but I honestly don't think most ears
> can hear it. Even trained ones.
>
> And in mono mode, you can record a full two hours...
>
> rgb
Now we get into features like run time etc. Minidisc is positioned toward
the consumer market, so most of the cheap recorders you'll look at lack a
number of the features you may want to shoot audio for video. Many MiniDisc
recorders lack meters, XLR ins, line level outs, etc. You need to decide
how important these are to you.
Meters I would not buy without.
If you're going to use mainly wireless mics, you can probably get away with
unbalanced connections, otherwise you'll need convert that piddly ministereo
plug to XLR using a good transformer based adapter. At this point you've
likely turned that convenient little device into a pile of adapters, so what
i would do is to build a 25 ft XLR to miniplug cable - adapt a few inches
from the miniplug end, so that the majority of the cable length is balanced.
I have also seen cradles that add big meters and XLR ins... look very slick,
though they increase the weight and size.
Line level is only a big consideration if you have to send audio to another
device in the field. Playback for the cast/director, using the minidisc as
source for audio playback for a music video etc.
I'd agree with rob... quality probably is not a reason to upgrade to DAT for
most people in most situations. Features may be. Weigh out all the
inconveniences you'll experience with MiniDisc and decide if it's worth the
$1500 dollars - chances are it is.
--mike
Mike Woodworth
divergent media, inc.
mike@divergentmedia.com
646.654.6883
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:00:36 -0400
From: "Stephen van Vuuren"
To:
Subject: RE: Dell 420
Message-ID: <000e01c0d0d6$4bb1dbe0$4423a8c0@dell420>
>Under Win2k there are still guys getting very good results with the latest
>420s. Under Win ME & 98SE, nothing but trouble.
Note that if your Win 2K Boot drive is on the Dell RAID card, Win 2K cannot
boot. If you buy a 420 with RAID, typically the boot drive is off the RAID
card.
I did get the RT2000 to work in slot 3 under Windows ME/MVT3 (PR1 only - did
not try final) in a very clean boot (only Premiere, RT2000 and Photoshop
installed). But once I got it working under Win 2K, I could not zap Windows
ME fast enough.
stephen
www.xiveren.com
"It can only be attributable to human error"
-HAL
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:23:49 -0400
From: Geoff Amthor
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010429140053.018c8e80@mail.mindspring.com>
>I'd agree with rob... quality probably is not a reason to upgrade to DAT for
>most people in most situations. Features may be. Weigh out all the
>inconveniences you'll experience with MiniDisc and decide if it's worth the
>$1500 dollars - chances are it is.
>
>--mike
>
>Mike Woodworth
But you're comparing consumer MiniDisc recorders to pro DAT recorders. The
portable MiniDisc recorders I'm considering are recently introduced pro
models. In order of my preference, they are:
1. HHB PortaDisc MDP500 (list $1,545)
2. Marantz PMD650 (list $1,399)
They cost about the same as low-end pro DAT recorders and have identical or
greater feature sets to the similarly priced DAT recorders, with the
exception of the native format differences between MiniDisc and DAT.
The HHB has a USB port for direct digital file transfer to PC/Mac, a unique
advantage among pro portable recorders using cheap removable media. The HHB
also has dual XLR in (mic/line, phantom power option), digital I/O (coax or
optical), analog line out, 1/4 headphone w/volume, independent manual level
controls with limiter and AGC options, and many more features. The MiniDisc
media is cheap and removable, has random access, and supports on-the-fly
track marking, titling and various standard MiniDisc editing controls. The
unit has pro specs including rugged build, rugged transport, dynamic range
of > 96dB (line input), Microphone EIN > 122dB A-weighted, S/N > 89dB
(playback), unmeasurable wow & flutter, THD < 0.02%, and frequency response
10Hz-20KHz.
The only significant disadvantages I can see with this HHB product is the
audio compression and native 44KHz sampling rate when compared to DAT (and
DV). I would also have liked to see timecode sync, but supposedly the
MiniDisc format prevents this and the equivalent feature in portable DAT
greatly increases the price (Fostex PD4-V2, list $7,395).
Question for anyone who has used these or similar DAT recorders: Can I run
my mics to the HHB recorder, then unbalanced line out to my DV camera
(VX2000)? This would replace a Beachtek-type solution with a true pro
preamp/recording monitor and allow me to record my video and audio on the
same DV tape (audio via the HHB interface), with a separate backup
recording on MiniDisc that could be used to replace the DV audio when
necessary/preferred.
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:13:32 -0400
From: "Walt"
To:
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Message-ID: <005e01c0d0e0$8138aa00$6401a8c0@design1>
I'd go with the DAT recorder because of the higher recording quality and the
fact the sample rate is 48 KHz versus the minidisk which is 44.1 KHz. The 48
KHz sample rate audio is a natural for use with any DV or pro digital
recording system. With the minidisk you'll lose both with the compression
and the sample rate conversion, a double loss. The only downside to DAT is
that it's not random access but then I typically transfer it all to a hard
drive as soon as I get back from the field anyway so it's not much of an
issue. I'm using the pro portable Tascam DAT recorder.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Amthor"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
>
> >I'd agree with rob... quality probably is not a reason to upgrade to DAT
for
> >most people in most situations. Features may be. Weigh out all the
> >inconveniences you'll experience with MiniDisc and decide if it's worth
the
> >$1500 dollars - chances are it is.
> >
> >--mike
> >
> >Mike Woodworth
>
> But you're comparing consumer MiniDisc recorders to pro DAT recorders. The
> portable MiniDisc recorders I'm considering are recently introduced pro
> models. In order of my preference, they are:
>
> 1. HHB PortaDisc MDP500 (list $1,545)
> 2. Marantz PMD650 (list $1,399)
>
> They cost about the same as low-end pro DAT recorders and have identical
or
> greater feature sets to the similarly priced DAT recorders, with the
> exception of the native format differences between MiniDisc and DAT.
>
> The HHB has a USB port for direct digital file transfer to PC/Mac, a
unique
> advantage among pro portable recorders using cheap removable media. The
HHB
> also has dual XLR in (mic/line, phantom power option), digital I/O (coax
or
> optical), analog line out, 1/4 headphone w/volume, independent manual
level
> controls with limiter and AGC options, and many more features. The
MiniDisc
> media is cheap and removable, has random access, and supports on-the-fly
> track marking, titling and various standard MiniDisc editing controls. The
> unit has pro specs including rugged build, rugged transport, dynamic range
> of > 96dB (line input), Microphone EIN > 122dB A-weighted, S/N > 89dB
> (playback), unmeasurable wow & flutter, THD < 0.02%, and frequency
response
> 10Hz-20KHz.
>
> The only significant disadvantages I can see with this HHB product is the
> audio compression and native 44KHz sampling rate when compared to DAT (and
> DV). I would also have liked to see timecode sync, but supposedly the
> MiniDisc format prevents this and the equivalent feature in portable DAT
> greatly increases the price (Fostex PD4-V2, list $7,395).
>
> Question for anyone who has used these or similar DAT recorders: Can I run
> my mics to the HHB recorder, then unbalanced line out to my DV camera
> (VX2000)? This would replace a Beachtek-type solution with a true pro
> preamp/recording monitor and allow me to record my video and audio on the
> same DV tape (audio via the HHB interface), with a separate backup
> recording on MiniDisc that could be used to replace the DV audio when
> necessary/preferred.
>
> Geoff
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:08:27 -0400
From: "Mike Woodworth"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: FCP help
Message-ID: <200104292155.RAA24095@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is 2-pop? (Yes I know www.2-pop.com, but
> didn't know it had a special meaning).
> Ton - 49 but never too old to learn - Guiking
>
On an academy leader, your have the number 8-3 counting down all onscreen
for 1 second a piece. The number 2 is onscreen for one frame, and
accompanied by a single frame of 1kHz tone - a 2 pop. Followed by 2 seconds
of black.
Mike - 21 and not sure where the hell I learned it - Woodworth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:10:38 -0700
From: "Robert C. Fisher"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Message-ID: <3AEC9F6F.7D1AA7E2@pacbell.net>
Walt wrote:
> I'd go with the DAT recorder because of the higher recording quality and the
> fact the sample rate is 48 KHz versus the minidisk which is 44.1 KHz. The 48
> KHz sample rate audio is a natural for use with any DV or pro digital
> recording system. With the minidisk you'll lose both with the compression
> and the sample rate conversion, a double loss. The only downside to DAT is
> that it's not random access but then I typically transfer it all to a hard
> drive as soon as I get back from the field anyway so it's not much of an
> issue. I'm using the pro portable Tascam DAT recorder.
>
> Walt
>
Right now nothing can beat the cost/performance of the minidisc. The HHB minidisc is a great machine and it provides USB output to your computer so there is no need for a digital audio
card. Also at $200 for a decent consumer minidisc recorder they can become expendable if need be and they are small enough to put in the subjects pocket negating the need for wireless mics
and their problems. I have used minidisc for several music shows and the audio quality is excelent, since the show ended up on tape there was no difference in the end products audio
quality. It's really hard to tell the difference between DAT and Minidisc. Under extream conditions the minidisc can be more reliable than the DAT which operates similar to a VCR(recording
to the tape via helical scanning). It would be very easy to put one of the portable machines in a plastic ziplock bag for protection. The one thing DAT has going for it is the Timecode
recording abilities of many DAT machines and its large installed base in the post production industry.
Cheers
Bob Fisher
FishPond Digital
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas White
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
Message-ID: <20010429232013.18824.qmail@web14307.mail.yahoo.com>
Hi,
I've been away from this list for awhile. Glad to see
it's still going strong; seems better than ever, in
fact.
I need to upgrade my NLE system and, long story short,
the people I'm working for are willing to buy
something in the 10K or less range. So I'm looking at
G4/FCP packages as well as Avid Xpress DV. I've
scheduled demos with a couple of resellers, but I'd
really like to hear from people who have actually done
projects with this equipment.
So, if you're using one of these systems, and you're
game for making a few comments, I'm interested in
hearing about:
I/O SUPPORT
Firewire is supported, but what else? How about
component from a BetaSP deck? S-Video, at least?
NTSC/PAL
A system that can handle both well would be ideal. How
well does yours do? Any limitations?
UI
FCP and Xpress DV have a similar interface. I'm
expecting the learning curve to be slight for someone
familiar with Premiere. Any special considerations
that you can think of?
BLUESCREEN/KEYING TOOLS
Shooting against bluescreen without needing an
in-studio matte system would be a great benefit. Any
comments on the performance of such post tools in your
system?
MPEG2 ENCODING
What encoding tools are provided with your system, and
what results have you gotten with them? Can you encode
MPEG2 in MPEG2 transport?
Since it's a pre-firewire device, the Minerva encoder
I use has serial digital (for DigiBeta) and S-Video.
For those who have been going firewire into the NLE
system, and S-Video into a hardware encoder, how would
you rate the results in terms of broadcast
suitability?
YOUR RESULTS
So how has using your system made an impressive
difference in your work?
Thanks beforehand for any information or opinions you
offer.
--dw
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:24:58 -0700
From: rob@gregorybrowne.com
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Message-ID: <3AEC405A.27891.E28C7A@localhost>
On 29 Apr 2001, at 15:13, Walt wrote:
> I'd go with the DAT recorder because of the higher recording quality
> and the fact the sample rate is 48 KHz versus the minidisk which is
> 44.1 KHz. The 48 KHz sample rate audio is a natural for use with any
> DV or pro digital recording system. With the minidisk you'll lose both
> with the compression and the sample rate conversion, a double loss.
> The only downside to DAT is that it's not random access but then I
> typically transfer it all to a hard drive as soon as I get back from
> the field anyway so it's not much of an issue. I'm using the pro
> portable Tascam DAT recorder.
I've got nothing against DAT but the price. My minidisc player cost
a couple hundred bucks. It sounds superb.
rgb
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 16:29:49 -0700
From: rob@gregorybrowne.com
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Message-ID: <3AEC417D.28327.E6FBCE@localhost>
On 29 Apr 2001, at 13:52, Mike Woodworth wrote:
> MiniDisc captures at the same sample rate I
> believe, but it then passes the audio data through a compression
> routine similar to the MP3 codec. It does not sound as good -- but
> that difference is dependant upon what you are recording.
I'd say minidisc is definitely superior to MP3. And just a half-step
below DAT.
Truth is, I don't think many people could tell the difference between
DAT and minidisc in a blindfold test. The DAT specs are better, no
question, but can anyone but the most discerning listener hear
them?
So, again, it comes down to cost. If you've got money to burn, by
all means, get a DAT. I certainly would. But if you're saving
pennies to buy equipment and want something ALMOST as good,
get the minidisc. Nobody will know the difference but you.
rgb
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:59:18 -0400
From: "Professor Yedidyah Langsam"
To:
Subject: Audio in Premier 6
Message-ID: <003e01c0d108$68b352a0$4f01f592@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu>
Hi,
I have updated my system:
Toshiba laptop 8100 650MHz 256Mb
VST Firewire Cardbus Card
Sony DCR-PC1 miniDV
to Adobe Premier 6.0 and notice the following:
When the firewire card is connected and the camera is on (VTR mode) I can
capture fine using Premier. However the following strange thing happens:
If I import a video/audio file onto the timeline, or use the avi that was
just imported, and then play it from within the program monitor, -- just the
video plays, no audio. BUT the audio is obviously there, since if I use the
scrub control either forward or backwards, both the video and audio tracks
play fine.
If I disconnect the firewire card and camera then both tracks play fine from
within the program monitor.
Am I overlooking something trivial? Any help would be appreciated.
==============================================================
Professor Yedidyah Langsam
Department of Computer and Information Science
Brooklyn College of CUNY
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210
email: langsam@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu
Web: http://eilat.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu
ICQ: 10661149
AOL IM: BCCISProf
voice: (718) 951-4161
==============================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:05:34 -0500
From: "E. Mitchell"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: FCP help
Message-ID:
At 4:45 PM -0400 4/28/2001, steve sanacore wrote:
>I am attempting to sweeten up some sound tracks. I can open the FCP clips in
>the Peak software and run the sound through it which really improves the
>balance of it from clip to clip - but when I save it as a aiff file and
>re-import it into FCP I of course loose sync.
I hate it when sync gets loosed :{)
After having seen your question, I installed my copy of PeakDV, just
to satisfy my own curiosity. Being a strict Mac user I refused to
look at the documentation and simply ploughed ahead with a couple of
tests. Here's what I found: If a clip is imported into PeakDV and
then saved as aiff, you lose the timecode, which is your absolute
sync reference. However if, after sweetening, you save your work as
a quicktime movie, your timecode stays intact. Of course, it will
take more disk real estate to save full QT movies, but if you can
live with that, it should work for you. And me too, now that I've
found out about it, thanks for asking the question!
--
Elliott
<>< < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < < <
| Elliott Mitchell
| Learning Technology Center, Vanderbilt University
| Peabody Mail Stop 45 - Nashville, Tennessee 37203
| V: 615-343-4521 F :615-343-7556
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 20:34:53 -0400
From: Geoff Amthor
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT,
MiniDisc
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010429202309.018584f8@mail.mindspring.com>
>I'd go with the DAT recorder because of the higher recording quality and the
>fact the sample rate is 48 KHz versus the minidisk which is 44.1 KHz. The 48
>KHz sample rate audio is a natural for use with any DV or pro digital
>recording system. With the minidisk you'll lose both with the compression
>and the sample rate conversion, a double loss. The only downside to DAT is
>that it's not random access but then I typically transfer it all to a hard
>drive as soon as I get back from the field anyway so it's not much of an
>issue. I'm using the pro portable Tascam DAT recorder.
>
>Walt
Remember that the perception of MD sound quality has been made with
consumer units and in some cases earlier compression algorithms. The HHB
PortaDisc uses pro preamps and pro A/D converters, balanced XLR connectors
(enabling pro mics), and presumably some attention to quiet electronics.
(I'm also willing to bet that these HHB electronics are superior to those
found in most DV or DVCAM camcorders, which is why I'm investigating this
issue at all.)
Also, quantity of bits does not equal audio quality. It is possible to
develop a compression algorithm that uses fewer bits but achieves higher
quality. The DAT standard is a fixture in time, but MD's ATRAC algorithm
has evolved over a decade. I can't claim to know that MD's ATRAC algorithm
has achieved DAT quality (to human perception), but scientifically the
possibility is reasonable. If MD is at all close to DAT, I certainly would
appreciate the saving in media cost (MD vs DAT) and cost of
players/recorders for casual use, to say nothing of all the advantages of
MD for non-linear editing.
The HHB PortaDAT was a leader in portable sound recording. HHB apparently
felt so strongly about the MD PortaDisc that they discontinued the PortaDAT
upon introduction of the PortaDisc. To me, that's a pretty powerful
statement about how they feel about the sound quality of their MD product.
The issue of conversion from 44 KHz (MD) to 48 KHz (DV) is of course
something to look at. Can anyone recommend the best software to perform
this conversion? It seems that the quality of conversion may vary
significantly.
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:49:37 -0500
From: "Mr Gremlin"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re Audio S/N & quality
Message-ID:
I am afraid I am going to go in the opposite direction of many of the
posters on this subject.
I came to video by way of a music/recording studio background.This will
explain the fervor with which I say to you......Mini disk audio quality
sucks! It does not approach DAT or near DAT or even near near DAT quality.
I have always felt that audio was afforded the status of "bastard child of
video", and according to most of the posts on subject, I find nothing to
change my mind.
I always approach each project, with the goal of putting the highest quality
components, pictures, video and audio possible on the tape or film. If I
start with the highest resolutions; when I dub, reformat or covert, the
downsampling/generation leeching that takes place leaves me with the best
possible outcome.
If, as your post mentions, budget-wise you have enough to buy a DAT recorder
you should. Blank tapes are cheap and you get the added advantage, that
every audio post house or recording studio anywhere has one, and so bringing
in sweetened audio is a dream.
Now, so I don't get flamed to death, read the following carefully.
If you are under a strict budget.The MD will work for you.
I have used them myself in situations that called for them.
(I once put them in the pockets of race car drivers, with lav mics attached,
to get drivers talking in the car while racing ... I had cameras mounted in
the cab as well ... )
But please don't harbor the misconception that MD is "almost as good as DAT"
The compression algorithms for Mini Disk are the main root of this evil, but
there are other things as well. (higher quality D/A A/D converters, better
mic pre amps, better components, etc)
If you were to A/B these two formats side by side in a controlled
environment (As I have), you would hear the HUGE difference.
Also, the argument that you may be using the final product for streaming
content and therefore don't need the highest quality recordings is
inaccurate as well. Common sense should tell you (and lab testing will show)
that the higher the quality of the original media, the better the sound of
the compressed final product.
The bottom line here is this. We should all shoot (sorry for the pun) for
the best quality production possible under the conditions given to us by the
client. We have all had to cut fiscal, artistic or physical corners at one
time or another to make it all work out. And I understand when necessity
forces us to use cheaper gear. But in this forum, one of the best things
about it, is it's ability to teach and inform. If we give out information,
we should be careful that we don't give incomplete or inaccurate answers.
Yes, in the right conditions, MiniDisks can be a useful tool in our ever
expanding bag of tricks for video and film. But, No, it is not the sonic
equivalent to DAT or even direct to camera tape.
Remember.... Quality in Quality out.
P.S. Don't even get me started about the sound quality of Mp3's ;-)
Jack
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:38:41 -0400
From: "Stephen van Vuuren"
To:
Subject: RE: Audio S/N & quality for Sony VX2000, PD-150, DSR-50, DAT, MiniDisc
Message-ID: <001001c0d116$49ad6540$4423a8c0@dell420>
I think this discussion about DAT vs. Minidisc misses the big point. We used
both DAT and Minidisc on my first short film and differences in sound
quality were determined by microphone, cable and mixer quality and most of
all by the skill of the operator.
For dialog and effects, I could tell no difference in sound quality between
the two. I am sure in a critical listening environment with demanding music,
there's a noticeable difference. But this does not apply to most video
production environment.
stephen
www.xiveren.com
"It can only be attributable to human error"
-HAL
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:53:00 -0400
From: "Christopher Van Nest"
To:
Subject: RE: G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
Message-ID:
You might also consider a R/T card on the PC side, something like the
DVStorm from Canopus? Of course, I don't know all your details and this
isn't a platform war-- just thought to mention it as the price is supposed
to be very good for the performance and (with the Storm) performance scales
well with processor speed.
-Christopher
____________________________
Host/Producer FREESPORT-TV
http://www.freesport-tv.com/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas White [mailto:dvdoug@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 7:20 PM
> To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
> Subject: G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been away from this list for awhile. Glad to see
> it's still going strong; seems better than ever, in
> fact.
>
> I need to upgrade my NLE system and, long story short,
> the people I'm working for are willing to buy
> something in the 10K or less range. So I'm looking at
> G4/FCP packages as well as Avid Xpress DV. I've
> scheduled demos with a couple of resellers, but I'd
> really like to hear from people who have actually done
> projects with this equipment.
>
> So, if you're using one of these systems, and you're
> game for making a few comments, I'm interested in
> hearing about:
>
> I/O SUPPORT
>
> Firewire is supported, but what else? How about
> component from a BetaSP deck? S-Video, at least?
>
> NTSC/PAL
>
> A system that can handle both well would be ideal. How
> well does yours do? Any limitations?
>
> UI
>
> FCP and Xpress DV have a similar interface. I'm
> expecting the learning curve to be slight for someone
> familiar with Premiere. Any special considerations
> that you can think of?
>
> BLUESCREEN/KEYING TOOLS
>
> Shooting against bluescreen without needing an
> in-studio matte system would be a great benefit. Any
> comments on the performance of such post tools in your
> system?
>
> MPEG2 ENCODING
>
> What encoding tools are provided with your system, and
> what results have you gotten with them? Can you encode
> MPEG2 in MPEG2 transport?
>
> Since it's a pre-firewire device, the Minerva encoder
> I use has serial digital (for DigiBeta) and S-Video.
> For those who have been going firewire into the NLE
> system, and S-Video into a hardware encoder, how would
> you rate the results in terms of broadcast
> suitability?
>
> YOUR RESULTS
>
> So how has using your system made an impressive
> difference in your work?
>
> Thanks beforehand for any information or opinions you
> offer.
>
> --dw
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:16:19 -0400
From:
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: RE: G4/FCP or Xpress DV?
Message-ID:
>You might also consider a R/T card on the PC side, something like the
>DVStorm from Canopus? Of course, I don't know all your details and this
>isn't a platform war-- just thought to mention it as the price is supposed
>to be very good for the performance and (with the Storm) performance scales
>well with processor speed.
>
>-Christopher
Not one to blow Avid's horn too hard, because
they have been very arrogant and mean spirited
in the past, their demo (which I taped most of before
being asked to stop taping) of DV Xpress was really
impressive. Avid has really felt the hot fetid breath
of FPC on the back of its neck and (in a panic) has packed on features
into DV Xpress that way surpass the Xpress SDI Deluxe I
bought for over $25K three years ago, including Film Scribe
and about $2K worth of Media Cleaner, Commotion, Boris and
TDM audio plug ins.
I also taped Apple's FPC 2 demo, which has taken a couple of major
steps forward.
My feeling is that any of these packages will get the
job done, and it really depends on exactly what it is that you
want to do and who you are doing it for.
j 'Storm also is very good from all I've seen' merser
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:24:35 -0400
From: Dave Haynie
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Re Audio S/N & quality
Message-ID: <20010429220308.8280.DHAYNIE@jersey.net>
On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:49:37 -0500, "Mr Gremlin" jammed all night, and by sunrise was heard saying:
> I came to video by way of a music/recording studio background. This will
> explain the fervor with which I say to you......Mini disk audio quality
> sucks!
I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't understand that MD isn't
DAT.
> I have always felt that audio was afforded the status of "bastard child of
> video", and according to most of the posts on subject, I find nothing to
> change my mind.
Video people do often consider audio an afterthought. As a systems
engineer with an audio/DAW background, I find this ranging from funny to
tragic, since audio is a much more difficult thing to do right, in a PC,
in software, etc. You'll notice that every "first year" video editing
system starts off with the approach, for example, that video's king and
audio comes along for the ride. And you'll notice that every video
editing/manipulation system that truely works right does timing from an
audio basis. Once reason I jumped when Sonic Foundry released "Vegas
Video" (well, that and the reputation for quality earned from their
audio tools, versus the bugs that just frustrated the piss out of me in
Premiere and MSP6.0).
> If, as your post mentions, budget-wise you have enough to buy a DAT recorder
> you should. Blank tapes are cheap and you get the added advantage, that
> every audio post house or recording studio anywhere has one, and so bringing
> in sweetened audio is a dream.
DAT's good, no question about it. But it's not a panacea, and not immune
to at least many of the problems you'll have with MD or any other
recording medium. Fundamentally, the only difference between DAT and MD
is in the final stage of the system: data goes directly to a DAT tape
via a VCR-like spinning head, data goes through the ADTRAC
psychoaccoustic (lossy) compression algorithm, then to a magento-optical
disc in an MD player.
> But please don't harbor the misconception that MD is "almost as good as DAT"
> The compression algorithms for Mini Disk are the main root of this evil,
You'll certainly hear the differences, if you know what to listen for,
just as with any lossy compression. Thing is, analog recording is also a
fundamentally lossy medium, you're just tossing out different bits and
making sync either expensive, flawed, or both. If MD does a better and
more practical job for a DV videographer than anything except DAT, it's
not such a bad thing.
> there are other things as well. (higher quality D/A A/D converters, better
> mic pre amps, better components, etc)
You get what you pay for, DAT or MD. I don't think it's necessarily the
case that the set of all DATs is universally offering better A/Ds (all
you really care about, anyway) than the set of all MD recorders. "Higher
quality components" is largely a myth, and there's little benefit to the
"quality" of components beyond the analog path, at least in terms of
sound quality (longevity issues, etc. are also of concern in the long
run). While I doubt many portable DAT or MD recorders are going to sound
as good as the DA-30 in my studio, I'll also claim it's a safe bet that,
you'll inherently pay much more for the same quality electronics in DAT
vs. MD, simply because MD mechanicals are cheap to make, DAT still
pretty pricey.
As for mic preamps, if you're using the built-in preamp in any portable
player, your sound quality is already compromised. And that's actually
the real story here: just how much are you putting into mics, preamps,
on-site mixers, etc? Clearly, this depends on what you're doing, but in
reality, if most of your audio concern isn't on the actual sound capture
gear, the choice of DAT vs. MD vs. analog is moot. A perfectly recorded
bit of crap is still crap.
> If you were to A/B these two formats side by side in a controlled
> environment (As I have), you would hear the HUGE difference.
The only true A/B test of the format difference must be run digitally.
You record the same digital source, play back through the same off-board
D/A, and then you have a valid A/B test. Anything else and you're
testing the actual unit, not the format.
> Also, the argument that you may be using the final product for streaming
> content and therefore don't need the highest quality recordings is
> inaccurate as well. Common sense should tell you (and lab testing will show)
> that the higher the quality of the original media, the better the sound of
> the compressed final product.
Using the identical compressor, there's quite a bit of "quality" that's
going right out the door and won't make a difference. Lossy compression
(audio or video) is VERY sensitive to noise, as most compressors will
reduce overall quality in an effort to preserve that noise. So there are
things that matter, and things that don't.
--
Dave Haynie dhaynie@metaboxusa.com http://www.metaboxusa.com
Chief Technology Officer, Metabox Corporation
"Too bad dark languages... rarely survive" -Poe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 02:25:05
From: "Howard Spivack"
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio in Premier 6
Message-ID:
I had this problem too. Here's how I solved it.
For some reason, my volume switch (in the taskbar tray) keeps reverting to no volume. I hear when I am scrubbing or editting, but no volume carried over to the video tape. Adjust it to high, then re-record.
I drove myself nuts rechecking cables, looking for boxes not checked in software and it was that simple.
Let me know if it works.
>From: "Professor Yedidyah Langsam"
>Reply-To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
>To:
>Subject: Audio in Premier 6
>Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:59:18 -0400
>
>Hi,
>
>I have updated my system:
>
>Toshiba laptop 8100 650MHz 256Mb
>VST Firewire Cardbus Card
>Sony DCR-PC1 miniDV
>
>to Adobe Premier 6.0 and notice the following:
>
>When the firewire card is connected and the camera is on (VTR mode) I can
>capture fine using Premier. However the following strange thing happens:
>
>If I import a video/audio file onto the timeline, or use the avi that was
>just imported, and then play it from within the program monitor, -- just the
>video plays, no audio. BUT the audio is obviously there, since if I use the
>scrub control either forward or backwards, both the video and audio tracks
>play fine.
>
>If I disconnect the firewire card and camera then both tracks play fine from
>within the program monitor.
>
>Am I overlooking something trivial? Any help would be appreciated.
>
>==============================================================
>Professor Yedidyah Langsam
>Department of Computer and Information Science
>Brooklyn College of CUNY
>2900 Bedford Avenue
>Brooklyn, NY 11210
>
>email: langsam@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu
>Web: http://eilat.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu
>ICQ: 10661149
>AOL IM: BCCISProf
>voice: (718) 951-4161
>==============================================================
>
>-- (cut off when replying)-----------------
>This list is made possible by Lifetime DV-L Benefactors such as http://www.promax.com, http://www.videoguys.com, http://www.panasonic.com/broadcast and the contributions of its members.
>
>To contribute money: http://www.computervicestore.com/dvl.html
>All about DV-L, to subscribe & unsubscribe: http://www.DVCentral.org/thelist.html
>DV-L archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DV-List/messages
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:02:11 -0400
From: John Jackman
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: color bars/NTSC monitor confusion-J. Jackman
Message-ID: <3AECD5B0.1697BA5@compuserve.com>
Mark Wade wrote:
>A few more questions for you if you don't mind: You say I should use
the
>bars from the DSR-500, do you mean as recorded on the tape, or directly
fed
>from the camera?
Record bars to tape, capture via firewire. Use that.
>Also, the three black bars at the bottom right which you
>describe, the middle one clearly is "lighter" than the outer two as I
adjust
>the brightness, but the outer two always seem the same. Which bar is
the
>"super black, which is black?" Are they always in the same order?
Hmmm -- you are looking at the three thin vertical bars at the lower
right? The leftmost should be superblack (approx RGB value of 7,7,7)
the middle bar should be black (16,16,16) and teh rightmost bar dark
gray (24,24,24). Remember that in DV, 16,16,16 translates into 0 IRE
when output to analog. When setup is applied either at the output of a
pro deck or with a proc amp at the dub house, that raises the level to
proper 7.5 IRE for NTSC black.
>Also, what about software wave form monitors? There is one included
with
>FCP, and there are others I found while searching this issue. Can they
>help?
Yes, tho' they are not as handy or usable as display scopes.
John Jackman
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:45:31 -0400
From: Geoff Amthor
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Re Audio S/N & quality
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010429231653.0193d008@mail.mindspring.com>
Dave Haynie wrote:
>You get what you pay for, DAT or MD. I don't think it's necessarily the
>case that the set of all DATs is universally offering better A/Ds (all
>you really care about, anyway) than the set of all MD recorders. "Higher
>quality components" is largely a myth, and there's little benefit to the
>"quality" of components beyond the analog path, at least in terms of
>sound quality (longevity issues, etc. are also of concern in the long
>run). While I doubt many portable DAT or MD recorders are going to sound
>as good as the DA-30 in my studio, I'll also claim it's a safe bet that,
>you'll inherently pay much more for the same quality electronics in DAT
>vs. MD, simply because MD mechanicals are cheap to make, DAT still
>pretty pricey.
>
>As for mic preamps, if you're using the built-in preamp in any portable
>player, your sound quality is already compromised. And that's actually
>the real story here: just how much are you putting into mics, preamps,
>on-site mixers, etc? Clearly, this depends on what you're doing, but in
>reality, if most of your audio concern isn't on the actual sound capture
>gear, the choice of DAT vs. MD vs. analog is moot. A perfectly recorded
>bit of crap is still crap.
Nice post, Dave.
I'll bite: since it seems you like to use an external preamp (you imply
that even pro DAT and MD portable recorders have mediocre mic preamps),
what portable preamps or mixers do you recommend?
While I'm at it: what mics do you recommend for interviews in somewhat
noisy non-studio (office etc) environments? I was thinking about using
Sennheiser 416 for shotgun, Sanken COS-11s for lav, an Electro-Voice RE-50
for dynamic, and an EV RE-20 for voiceovers. For these interviews, I'd like
to keep the mic out of the video picture, which pointed me toward shotguns
and lavs, but it's been observed that lavs sound too close and shotguns
don't screen out ambient sounds in the low and mid frequencies. Someone
suggested to me that a cartioid or hypercardioid mic held close to the
subject (just out of view) would do the best job of isolating the subject
from the ambient noise while still providing more realism than the
too-close lav mics. One such mic he suggested was the Neumann KM150 -- I'm
not sure if it would be much better than, say, the RE-50, for this use.
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:58:50 -0400
From: Geoff Amthor
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Re Audio S/N & quality - review of HHB PortaDisc MDP500
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010429235006.0cff9c78@mail.mindspring.com>
As stated earlier in this thread, I'm evaluating the new professional HHB
PortaDisc MDP500 minidisc recorder. I tracked down an early user of this
machine -- this is an excerpt of his review via email to me:
"Yes, it's in heavy use, arrived early December, one week after the first
container of them arrived in the US. Very impressive machine, excellent.
At least for my usage it's far and away the best portable....
The preamp does a much better job than the walkman style MD's. Much,
much less need for a external pre. And better dynamic range.
In general this is a recordist's machine. And pretty manual in it's
controls. Not much in the way of cute consumer stuff."
He also mentioned that the USB port streams raw digital data to the PC/Mac
@44KHz 16-bit. If one had a laptop computer available for the shoot, this
stream might be recorded live (during the shoot itself), bypassing the
ATRAC minidisc compression altogether. (This is simply an idea we were
discussing, not something he has tried.) If nothing else, this might be a
good way of isolating the effect of ATRAC compression on the audio
recording quality of the HHB.
Geoff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:31:52 -0700
From: rob@gregorybrowne.com
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re Audio S/N & quality
Message-ID: <3AEC9658.7245.23280BB@localhost>
On 29 Apr 2001, at 19:49, Mr Gremlin wrote:
> But please
> don't harbor the misconception that MD is "almost as good as DAT" The
> compression algorithms for Mini Disk are the main root of this evil,
> but there are other things as well.
I don't think this is what I said, exactly. MD -- to MOST listeners --
is as good as DAT. Spec-wise, certainly not. But I doubt that
MOST of us (as I said before) could tell the difference in a blind
listening test.
If I could afford a 35 mm movie camera and the film stock to go
along with it, I'd certainly be using it instead of a DV cam -- and dv
doesn't even approach film's quality -- but money-wise dv is the
way to go.
And so is minidisc. Which, to my ears, does NOT suck.
I'm reminded of a fraternity of magicians who try like hell to impress
each other with their knuckle-busting sleight of hand, when the
truth is, the audience doesn't give a hoot about such skills.
All the audience really cares about is what they see.
rgb
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 23:05:00 -0700
From: Adobe Dynamic Media Group
To: DV-L@dvcentral.org
Subject: Re: Audio in Premier 6
Message-ID:
hello professor,
with the default DV presets, when playing back DV clips in the Source
Monitor, Premiere uses the system's sound card. when playing back DV
from the Timeline, it goes out over the firewire. make sure your
speakers are connected to both the sound card and the DV camera and
you'll always hear both.
At 7:59 PM -0400 on 4/29/01, Professor Yedidyah Langsam wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have updated my system:
>
>Toshiba laptop 8100 650MHz 256Mb
>VST Firewire Cardbus Card
>Sony DCR-PC1 miniDV
>
>to Adobe Premier 6.0 and notice the following:
>
>When the firewire card is connected and the camera is on (VTR mode) I can
>capture fine using Premier. However the following strange thing happens:
>
>If I import a video/audio file onto the timeline, or use the avi that was
>just imported, and then play it from within the program monitor, -- just the
>video plays, no audio. BUT the audio is obviously there, since if I use the
>scrub control either forward or backwards, both the video and audio tracks
>play fine.
>
>If I disconnect the firewire card and camera then both tracks play fine from
>within the program monitor.
>
>Am I overlooking something trivial? Any help would be appreciated.
>
>==============================================================
>Professor Yedidyah Langsam
>Department of Computer and Information Science
>Brooklyn College of CUNY
>2900 Bedford Avenue
>Brooklyn, NY 11210
>
>email: langsam@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu
>Web: http://eilat.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu
>ICQ: 10661149
>AOL IM: BCCISProf
>voice: (718) 951-4161
>==============================================================
>
>-- (cut off when replying)-----------------
>This list is made possible by Lifetime DV-L Benefactors such as
>http://www.promax.com, http://www.videoguys.com,
>http://www.panasonic.com/broadcast and the contributions of its
>members.
>
>To contribute money: http://www.computervicestore.com/dvl.html
>All about DV-L, to subscribe & unsubscribe:
>http://www.DVCentral.org/thelist.html
>DV-L archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DV-List/messages
------------------------------
End of DV-L V1 #841
*******************
-- (cut off when replying)-----------------
This list is made possible by Lifetime DV-L Benefactors such as http://www.promax.com, http://www.videoguys.com, http://www.panasonic.com/broadcast and the contributions of its members.
To contribute money: http://www.computervicestore.com/dvl.html
All about DV-L, to subscribe & unsubscribe: http://www.DVCentral.org/thelist.html
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