uncompressed from XHA-1? at DVinfo.net

David McGiffert · April 28th, 2007, 11:50 AM

Is there a way to capture uncompressed from
an XHA-1? I'm obviously alittle lacking on education.

Thanks,

David

Doug Tessler · April 28th, 2007, 01:58 PM

You can capture through firewire which is HDV format. The G1 has a breakout box panel that you could do uncompressed . But its still very acceptable while editing in FCP or Premiere etc.

Hope this helps u out !

Doug T

Ben Hayflick · April 28th, 2007, 02:36 PM

And the A1's analog component is uncompressed 4:2:2.

David McGiffert · April 28th, 2007, 05:01 PM

Thanks guys, ok.

Analog component input it is...
(edit) IF it is 4:2:2

Sometimes I fall off learning curve...

David

Mike Gorski · April 28th, 2007, 06:32 PM

I was thinking about this since the AJA IO-HD unit would come in handy allowing for on the spot live recording of uncompressed 4:2:2 colorspace via analog imputs utilizing the new apple lossless compression. This would be key since the amount of data transfer is manageable as opposed to the tremendous 1.4 GB/s. My questions is can anyone tell me if the analog out puts of the XH-A1 offer true uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 HD video? And if so how well does the converted analog signal look as opposed to the HDV signal. I have huge intrest in this as a future option when technology gets better and the ability to record high motion video without suffering from heavy artifacts as a result of the GOP based compression. Anyone else on the same page or looking in the direction I am?

Bill Doyle · April 29th, 2007, 05:19 AM

I'm with you on that one Mike. I'm also trying to see just what the workflow possibilities are for HDV users with the the ioHD- will it allow us to capture using ProRes 422 for all editing before transcoding to MPEG2 or is ProRes best left for effects and titles?

Bill

Harm Millaard · April 29th, 2007, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Hayflick

And the A1's analog component is uncompressed 4:2:2.

In the manual it only states Component Out terminal is 1080i (D3) compatible.

Where can I find confirmation for your claim?

David McGiffert · April 29th, 2007, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Hayflick

And the A1's analog component is uncompressed 4:2:2.

I've been poking around too Ben and can't find any specific's
to verify that either...

Where?

David

Pavel Sedlak · April 29th, 2007, 01:37 PM

D3 1080i is YPrPb HDTV (EIA 770.3) - EIA/CEA-770.3-A(B) standart, which defines a wideband analog component interface. This is made from HDV/ HD mpeg2 (MP@ML, 4:2:0 HDV), so I think it canť be better (than this compressed HDV).

Uncompressed/lossles compressed signal try get from G1 (if you capture by HD SDI out), but in this class of camcorders it's not mean big difference.

Ben Hayflick · April 29th, 2007, 10:11 PM

AFAIK the A1's analog component out bypasses the HDV codec altogether, i.e. is pre HDV encoding and yields a 4:2:2 image. Here's a thread which discusses a bit:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...alog+component

I've seen this confirmed on other threads many times. Do a search for analog component here or at dvxuser and see what turns up.

Barlow Elton · April 29th, 2007, 10:24 PM

The LIVE camera signal (not VTR-mode HDV playback) via the analog component connector is true uncompressed 4:2:2. I've done my own captures into a Kona card and compared it to the same image from HDV (you can record HDV and uncompressed at the same time) and it does indeed contain more color info--but here's the deal...the difference is very subtle. It's not nearly as radical *perceptually* as a lot of people think it is.

As to whether it's true 10 bit 4:2:2--I think the image is quantized to 8 bit via DSP and then spit out uncompressed, so capturing to a 10 bit codec won't likely help anything.

Ben Hayflick · April 29th, 2007, 10:31 PM

Exactly. I have read that it's 8-bit 4:2:2 via live capture only. Recording to a Firestore or Mini-DV tape forces HDV encoding, dropping it to 4:2:0.

I saw a comparison of stills from 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 (yours, Barlow?), and it's not nearly enough to consider shooting tethered. They were extremely close. If you're in a studio situation where you're shooting tethered, then it might be an option. But for run and gun or more portable work, the HDV 4:2:0 properly handled is 99.9% as stunning.

Barlow Elton · April 30th, 2007, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Hayflick

I saw a comparison of stills from 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 (yours, Barlow?), and it's not nearly enough to consider shooting tethered. They were extremely close. If you're in a studio situation where you're shooting tethered, then it might be an option. But for run and gun or more portable work, the HDV 4:2:0 properly handled is 99.9% as stunning.

Yeah that was me, and I think you're correct for the most part. The difference is a bit more pronounced if you need to push the image (heavy CC, fx etc) a great deal in post. That's where very good 4:2:2 acquisition can help a great deal. HDV pushed hard and recompressed (conforming or "rebuilding" GOPs) will show the blockies whereas lossless (Sheer, uncompressed) or lightly compressed (ProRes, CineForm) will be clean.

David McGiffert · April 30th, 2007, 07:59 AM

Barlow, Ben an all...

Thanks for all the information...I feel better about
the A1's HDV capability as opposed to worring about
no ability for uncompressed coming out from the camera.

This is a great learning curve. My next hurdle is figuring
out if there is any way to retain that image quality (or close)
from fcp to DVD output. Now THAT's frustrating.

Thank you again,

David

Mark Fry · April 30th, 2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David McGiffert

My next hurdle is figuring out if there is any way to retain that image quality (or close) from fcp to DVD output. Now THAT's frustrating.

DVD Video is standard definition MPEG2 at up to 8Mbps (or thereabouts). You can store other formats of video file on DVD discs, such as the high-def versions of Windows Media or QuickTime, but that's not "normal" DVD Video. There may be one or two players around that will read them, but otherwise you're limited to playing back from a computer, AFAIK. (Please tell me if there's a practical alternative yet.)

For the moment, I'm down-converting in the camera, then editing and authoring in standard def, widescreen DV. There's a fair increase in picture quality over my XM1, and I've not had to upgrade my computer.

Maybe in 18 months or so, the HD-DVD vs BluRay arguments will be resolved and affordable players will be in the shops, but I'm not holding my breath.

April 28th, 2007, 11:50 AM	#1
David McGiffert Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Topanga, CA Posts: 139	uncompressed from XHA-1? Is there a way to capture uncompressed from an XHA-1? I'm obviously alittle lacking on education. Thanks, David

April 28th, 2007, 01:58 PM	#2
Doug Tessler Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: BOCa raton fl Posts: 342	not uncompressed You can capture through firewire which is HDV format. The G1 has a breakout box panel that you could do uncompressed . But its still very acceptable while editing in FCP or Premiere etc. Hope this helps u out ! Doug T

April 28th, 2007, 05:01 PM	#4
David McGiffert Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Topanga, CA Posts: 139	Thanks guys, ok. Analog component input it is... (edit) IF it is 4:2:2 Sometimes I fall off learning curve... David Last edited by David McGiffert; April 29th, 2007 at 08:32 AM.

April 29th, 2007, 01:37 PM	#9
Pavel Sedlak Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Prague Czech Republic Posts: 263	Re D3 1080i D3 1080i is YPrPb HDTV (EIA 770.3) - EIA/CEA-770.3-A(B) standart, which defines a wideband analog component interface. This is made from HDV/ HD mpeg2 (MP@ML, 4:2:0 HDV), so I think it canť be better (than this compressed HDV). Uncompressed/lossles compressed signal try get from G1 (if you capture by HD SDI out), but in this class of camcorders it's not mean big difference.

April 28th, 2007, 02:36 PM	#3
Ben Hayflick Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: NY, NY Posts: 55	And the A1's analog component is uncompressed 4:2:2.

April 28th, 2007, 06:32 PM	#5
Mike Gorski Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hermosa Beach, CA Posts: 163	I was thinking about this since the AJA IO-HD unit would come in handy allowing for on the spot live recording of uncompressed 4:2:2 colorspace via analog imputs utilizing the new apple lossless compression. This would be key since the amount of data transfer is manageable as opposed to the tremendous 1.4 GB/s. My questions is can anyone tell me if the analog out puts of the XH-A1 offer true uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 HD video? And if so how well does the converted analog signal look as opposed to the HDV signal. I have huge intrest in this as a future option when technology gets better and the ability to record high motion video without suffering from heavy artifacts as a result of the GOP based compression. Anyone else on the same page or looking in the direction I am?

April 29th, 2007, 05:19 AM	#6
Bill Doyle Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Worcester, MA Posts: 40	I'm with you on that one Mike. I'm also trying to see just what the workflow possibilities are for HDV users with the the ioHD- will it allow us to capture using ProRes 422 for all editing before transcoding to MPEG2 or is ProRes best left for effects and titles? Bill

April 29th, 2007, 10:11 PM	#10
Ben Hayflick Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: NY, NY Posts: 55	AFAIK the A1's analog component out bypasses the HDV codec altogether, i.e. is pre HDV encoding and yields a 4:2:2 image. Here's a thread which discusses a bit: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...alog+component I've seen this confirmed on other threads many times. Do a search for analog component here or at dvxuser and see what turns up.

April 29th, 2007, 10:24 PM	#11
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	The LIVE camera signal (not VTR-mode HDV playback) via the analog component connector is true uncompressed 4:2:2. I've done my own captures into a Kona card and compared it to the same image from HDV (you can record HDV and uncompressed at the same time) and it does indeed contain more color info--but here's the deal...the difference is very subtle. It's not nearly as radical perceptually as a lot of people think it is. As to whether it's true 10 bit 4:2:2--I think the image is quantized to 8 bit via DSP and then spit out uncompressed, so capturing to a 10 bit codec won't likely help anything.

April 29th, 2007, 10:31 PM	#12
Ben Hayflick Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: NY, NY Posts: 55	Exactly. I have read that it's 8-bit 4:2:2 via live capture only. Recording to a Firestore or Mini-DV tape forces HDV encoding, dropping it to 4:2:0. I saw a comparison of stills from 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 (yours, Barlow?), and it's not nearly enough to consider shooting tethered. They were extremely close. If you're in a studio situation where you're shooting tethered, then it might be an option. But for run and gun or more portable work, the HDV 4:2:0 properly handled is 99.9% as stunning.

April 30th, 2007, 07:59 AM	#14
David McGiffert Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Topanga, CA Posts: 139	Barlow, Ben an all... Thanks for all the information...I feel better about the A1's HDV capability as opposed to worring about no ability for uncompressed coming out from the camera. This is a great learning curve. My next hurdle is figuring out if there is any way to retain that image quality (or close) from fcp to DVD output. Now THAT's frustrating. Thank you again, David