4:2:2 component out? at DVinfo.net

Hayk Paul · March 14th, 2007, 09:38 PM

Hi everyone, I know this has been talked about before but I can't seem to find it under the search tab. Can someone explaint to me in a step-by-step nuts and bolts kind of way on what I have to do to shoot component out from my 110u, meaning what do I need to do that and what do I need to plug into what, and the pros and cons of this? Thank you.

Daniel Patton · March 14th, 2007, 10:01 PM

You might want to start by looking at your options for device to capture the component signal like the AJA and Decklink products. The pro's of going component are that you bypass the HDV/Tape, no longer are limited by the 4:2:0 color space, can work in 4:2:2 as uncompressed or DVCPROHD, better for keying, color grading and post production. And if real lucky the girlfriends complaints are kept to a mimimun since she know you are now broke. Best case scenerio of course.

The cons are that you will pay the price to use the AJA / Decklink products, will need a fast RAID drive array if you should choose Uncompressed (more $$$), DVCPRO HD is at least another option shoud you want to avoid the RAID drives. I found the component to produce a soft and rather pleasing picture, well soft at least, the verdict is out on if it's all that pleasing or not.

Is this any help at all?

Hayk Paul · March 14th, 2007, 10:11 PM

Thanks Daniel that helps a lot but now I have a few more questions. I checked on the Decklink site and a standard 10bit model only costs $300, and I don't think that's too much $$, however explain to me how this works exactly, does the Decklink go on a computer (laptop I'm assuming) and I have to have that computer plugged in to the camera as I'm shooting? Is that how it works? and where does the RAID drive come into all this, does that also go on the comp?? Or am I seeing this completley wrong. By the way I have a MacBook Pro, is that good/bad? Sorry if these questions sound pathetic I'm just not very bright when it comes to all this technical jargon and know-how.

Daniel Patton · March 14th, 2007, 10:57 PM

Well, you are right on your way there, that line of thinking is pretty well spot on. And yes, the Decklink is attached to the computer and the camera goes to the Decklink. Think of the Deklink as a bridge to get the data over from camera to computer. The drives attache to the computer and store the data being captured by the Decklink. Simple enough.

Daniel Browning · March 15th, 2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayk Paul

Thanks Daniel that helps a lot but now I have a few more questions. I checked on the Decklink site and a standard 10bit model only costs $300

You were looking at the standard-definition (480) model. The hi-def ones are about three times that.

Bill Ravens · March 15th, 2007, 07:51 AM

Basic entry level price is around 1295 for the decklink card. Be sure you have compatible I/O with the card you're looking at. For example, the Decklink cards, typically, take HD-SDI input. The HD100/110 outputs HD component(analog). So, you need a converter for going from analog to digital HD-SDI.

Farishad Latjuba · March 15th, 2007, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayk Paul

Thanks Daniel that helps a lot but now I have a few more questions. I checked on the Decklink site and a standard 10bit model only costs $300, and I don't think that's too much $$, however explain to me how this works exactly, does the Decklink go on a computer (laptop I'm assuming) and I have to have that computer plugged in to the camera as I'm shooting? Is that how it works? and where does the RAID drive come into all this, does that also go on the comp?? Or am I seeing this completley wrong. By the way I have a MacBook Pro, is that good/bad? Sorry if these questions sound pathetic I'm just not very bright when it comes to all this technical jargon and know-how.

For your MacBook Pro, perhaps you can have this in thought
http://www.mobl.com/expansion/produc...ion/index.html
It's the way of attaching PCI based card into laptop. I don't have the product yet, but 2 slot chassis can fit 2 hard drives, stripped them to 0 RAID with one slot for PCI used for SATA RAID Adapter and the other PCI slot used for Decklink.

But, to capture uncompressed 10-bit is not advisable in this setting because of the bottleneck. You need a powerhouse machine.

David Parks · March 15th, 2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farishad Latjuba

For your MacBook Pro, perhaps you can have this in thought
http://www.mobl.com/expansion/produc...ion/index.html
It's the way of attaching PCI based card into laptop. I don't have the product yet, but 2 slot chassis can fit 2 hard drives, stripped them to 0 RAID with one slot for PCI used for SATA RAID Adapter and the other PCI slot used for Decklink.

But, to capture uncompressed 10-bit is not advisable in this setting because of the bottleneck. You need a powerhouse machine.

I may be be wrong on this but I'm not sure this solution will work because the Decklink Cards are all PCIe or PCI X. Basic "Plain Jane" PCI slots are too out-dated and slow.

Hayk Paul · March 15th, 2007, 07:58 PM

Thanks guys. A real help. Decided that its just not realistic for me budget wise. I am getting ready to shoot a short although its close to being an hour long. Now i need to decide what is more essential the DR-hD100 drive or a Letus35HD100, although I hope to have enough $ for both I may have to choose only one. Anyway, thanks again.

Craig Parkes · March 15th, 2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayk Paul

Thanks guys. A real help. Decided that its just not realistic for me budget wise. I am getting ready to shoot a short although its close to being an hour long. Now i need to decide what is more essential the DR-hD100 drive or a Letus35HD100, although I hope to have enough $ for both I may have to choose only one. Anyway, thanks again.

Well, if you've got the Letus35, you are going also have to spring for the 35mm lenses to use with it. The DR-HD100 will save you some hassles, and also provide a back up in case of tape failure.

If you aesthetically need the narrower DOF in your short, then obviously go with the Letus 35 and some lenses, if workflow is more important, I'd go with a DRHD100.

Alternatively, buy the DRHD100 and see if you can hire the lens adaptor or vice versa for the shoot. (In generaly the HD100 seems a better purchase because it also enhances your kit for non narrative work.)

Jiri Fiala · March 17th, 2007, 12:02 AM

I still don't get this.

How do I bypass the tape by going component?

I would have to use something like DV Rack (which is Firewire only) for direct-to-disk, wouldn't I? Thanks for answers.

Daniel Patton · March 17th, 2007, 01:02 AM

Hey Jiri,

Both tape and firewire have HDV compression applied but the component out is prior to the cameras compressing the signal to HDV. Being that the firewire has this compression, that means that the DTE (Disk to Edit) portable drive solutions and products like DVRack have the HDV compression as well. It might save time as you avoid capturing from tapes after a shoot, but you gain absolutely nothing in quality. The only way to avoid a compressed signal is to go out the component jacks to a capture system (the AJA & Decklink products mentioned earlier) as uncompressed. This is a large data stream and so requires a drive array (multiple drives chained together).

You could say both of these solutions are essentially direct to disk but only one "component", offers some (arguable) gains.]

Farishad Latjuba · March 17th, 2007, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton

Hey Jiri,

Both tape and firewire have HDV compression applied but the component out is prior to the cameras compressing the signal to HDV. Being that the firewire has this compression, that means that the DTE (Disk to Edit) portable drive solutions and products like DVRack have the HDV compression as well. It might save time as you avoid capturing from tapes after a shoot, but you gain absolutely nothing in quality. The only way to avoid a compressed signal is to go out the component jacks to a capture system (the AJA & Decklink products mentioned earlier) as uncompressed. This is a large data stream and so requires a drive array (multiple drives chained together).

You could say both of these solutions are essentially direct to disk but only one "component", offers some (arguable) gains.]

Does AJA or Decklink can capture into DVCPRO HD format to hard disk or it has to go uncompressed?
I know that it can go directly to FireStore hard disk but the colorspace is still intact in 4:2:0. I just want to have more colorspace like DVCPRO HD (4:2:2). I know it is still in compression, but is it possible go for this format or any format other than uncompressed?

Steve Oakley · March 17th, 2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farishad Latjuba

Does AJA or Decklink can capture into DVCPRO HD format to hard disk or it has to go uncompressed?
I know that it can go directly to FireStore hard disk but the colorspace is still intact in 4:2:0. I just want to have more colorspace like DVCPRO HD (4:2:2). I know it is still in compression, but is it possible go for this format or any format other than uncompressed?

recording direct to disc with DVCpro HD in 720 is a waste. it knocks you res from 1280 to 960. this loss is visible in NTSC downconverts to me. the difference between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 ins't worth it when you loose out right res like that, and the differences in the two color spaces aren't really a big deal. only time it would make any real difference is in doing key work. other options are photojpeg and jpeg2000 - provided your machine is fast enough to compress in in RT at HD frames sizes. I'm having huge problems with photojpeg and gamma shifting since QT 7.1.4/5 came out so I'd say stay away from it for now. the native HDV format really does hold up pretty well *if* you are good with expsure and basic color look in camera, and are only looking to finesse the look in post for matching.

Jiri Fiala · March 17th, 2007, 02:07 PM

So, if I understand this correctly, outputting straight through component is like a direct-to-disk, hence used only in controlled environment? There's no benefit in capturing component from tape, right? Thank you all very much for answers!

March 14th, 2007, 09:38 PM	#1
Hayk Paul Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 64	4:2:2 component out? Hi everyone, I know this has been talked about before but I can't seem to find it under the search tab. Can someone explaint to me in a step-by-step nuts and bolts kind of way on what I have to do to shoot component out from my 110u, meaning what do I need to do that and what do I need to plug into what, and the pros and cons of this? Thank you.

March 14th, 2007, 10:01 PM	#2
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	You might want to start by looking at your options for device to capture the component signal like the AJA and Decklink products. The pro's of going component are that you bypass the HDV/Tape, no longer are limited by the 4:2:0 color space, can work in 4:2:2 as uncompressed or DVCPROHD, better for keying, color grading and post production. And if real lucky the girlfriends complaints are kept to a mimimun since she know you are now broke. Best case scenerio of course. The cons are that you will pay the price to use the AJA / Decklink products, will need a fast RAID drive array if you should choose Uncompressed (more $$$), DVCPRO HD is at least another option shoud you want to avoid the RAID drives. I found the component to produce a soft and rather pleasing picture, well soft at least, the verdict is out on if it's all that pleasing or not. Is this any help at all? __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977 Last edited by Daniel Patton; March 15th, 2007 at 09:36 AM.

March 14th, 2007, 10:57 PM	#4
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	Well, you are right on your way there, that line of thinking is pretty well spot on. And yes, the Decklink is attached to the computer and the camera goes to the Decklink. Think of the Deklink as a bridge to get the data over from camera to computer. The drives attache to the computer and store the data being captured by the Decklink. Simple enough. __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

March 17th, 2007, 01:02 AM	#12
Daniel Patton Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Knoxville TN Posts: 589	Hey Jiri, Both tape and firewire have HDV compression applied but the component out is prior to the cameras compressing the signal to HDV. Being that the firewire has this compression, that means that the DTE (Disk to Edit) portable drive solutions and products like DVRack have the HDV compression as well. It might save time as you avoid capturing from tapes after a shoot, but you gain absolutely nothing in quality. The only way to avoid a compressed signal is to go out the component jacks to a capture system (the AJA & Decklink products mentioned earlier) as uncompressed. This is a large data stream and so requires a drive array (multiple drives chained together). You could say both of these solutions are essentially direct to disk but only one "component", offers some (arguable) gains.] __________________ Our eyes allow us to see the world - The lens allows others to see the world through our eyes. RED ONE #977

March 14th, 2007, 10:11 PM	#3
Hayk Paul Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 64	Thanks Daniel that helps a lot but now I have a few more questions. I checked on the Decklink site and a standard 10bit model only costs $300, and I don't think that's too much $$, however explain to me how this works exactly, does the Decklink go on a computer (laptop I'm assuming) and I have to have that computer plugged in to the camera as I'm shooting? Is that how it works? and where does the RAID drive come into all this, does that also go on the comp?? Or am I seeing this completley wrong. By the way I have a MacBook Pro, is that good/bad? Sorry if these questions sound pathetic I'm just not very bright when it comes to all this technical jargon and know-how.

March 15th, 2007, 07:51 AM	#6
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Basic entry level price is around 1295 for the decklink card. Be sure you have compatible I/O with the card you're looking at. For example, the Decklink cards, typically, take HD-SDI input. The HD100/110 outputs HD component(analog). So, you need a converter for going from analog to digital HD-SDI.

March 15th, 2007, 07:58 PM	#9
Hayk Paul Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 64	Thanks guys. A real help. Decided that its just not realistic for me budget wise. I am getting ready to shoot a short although its close to being an hour long. Now i need to decide what is more essential the DR-hD100 drive or a Letus35HD100, although I hope to have enough $ for both I may have to choose only one. Anyway, thanks again.

March 17th, 2007, 12:02 AM	#11
Jiri Fiala Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brno Czech Republic Posts: 453	I still don't get this. How do I bypass the tape by going component? I would have to use something like DV Rack (which is Firewire only) for direct-to-disk, wouldn't I? Thanks for answers.

March 17th, 2007, 02:07 PM	#15
Jiri Fiala Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brno Czech Republic Posts: 453	So, if I understand this correctly, outputting straight through component is like a direct-to-disk, hence used only in controlled environment? There's no benefit in capturing component from tape, right? Thank you all very much for answers!