High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera at DVinfo.net

Forrest Schultz · March 25th, 2006, 06:46 PM

I recently did some shots this morning with a model 333 Elphel high defintion network camera.

www.elphel.com
also go to
wiki.elphel.com
for more updated information.

here are some still grabs from the video, please note, i am not using a correct c-mount lens, as i dont have it yet, but i used a 35mm lens with a wide angle 28mm focal length and just threw a black shirt over the setup. 28mm at 35 film isnt 28mm at 1/2 cmos sensor. so it still gives a telephoto shot. and please note i am out of focus slighty.

This was shot at 24fps with a 1/48th shutter speed. the resolution used was 1280x720p:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tti/beard1.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tti/smile1.jpg
to show motion blur:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ti/motion1.jpg
to show dof:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...etti/hand1.jpg

the model 333 can do 1280x1024 at 30fps, 2048x1536@12fps, and higher frame rates can be acheived by scaling resolution further, such as 800x600 or something. you specify exposure time, fps, and everything with the cameras main control window.
http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...ol_panel_1.jpg

the model 333 costs $800 for the board with the front 3Mpixel sensor. exactly what i have. Andrey Filippov of Elphel was kind enough to let me do these tests and post progress on creating a high definition cinema camera. let me know what you think about the quality of these shots. please note that the jpeg compression quality was set at 70% when i recorded, it can be set all the way to 99%. which in the case no artifacts should ever be seen. but even at 70% you wont see much at all. unless you really anylize it.

Oscar Spierenburg · March 27th, 2006, 05:57 AM

I still think it looks good, but it's hard to see the resolution on these shots. I've talked to Andrey Filippov about a 12V version of the camera, so I can use batteries if I want. I'm still about to order the camera, but was too busy this week.

Wayne Morellini · March 27th, 2006, 08:34 AM

Good to hear. So, are you saying that he is planning on doing a Digital Cinema camera, or just you? Would be good to see, if it had direct to disk USB/Ethernet, and on camera controls interface (no computer needed) and Ibis5a, I would think it would be almost exactly what we need.

Have you tried to find out max Ethernet data rates (min compression ratio), and about the Ogg codec? In the end, the quality of these things is what will deliver the best picture from the micron sensor.

Thanks

Wayne.

Forrest Schultz · March 27th, 2006, 09:33 PM

Thanks for the input guys! here, i finally got my c-mount zoom lens and it is awesome! i did some tests. and here they are!

This is my friend Eric, this is right after i opened up my lens from the packaging and started using it.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ti/eric001.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...infocus001.jpg
here, the leaves in the background are in focus
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...cleaves001.jpg

This is my sister and mother. they were very lazy today, it was rainy and cold.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...iafocus001.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...i/oliva001.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ti/mom2001.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tti/mom001.jpg

please note, all these were shot at true 24 fps, and at a 1/48th shutter speed. all these were handheld shots, and get a perfect still is quite hard. Thanks!!! and remember these are actually from the .avi video. try to imagine these shots in motion. thanks!

Jef Bryant · March 28th, 2006, 11:16 PM

Could you please post a short (a few seconds) of video shot at best possible compression settings, highest possible rez, with 48th sec shutter speed, 24fps? Something with movement in the frame?

Forrest Schultz · March 28th, 2006, 11:55 PM

jef, i will try, ill find a site that can host video files. thanks

Jef Bryant · March 29th, 2006, 12:10 AM

Thanks. That will really allow us to see what the possibilities are.

The problems I've had with the "build your own HD cine camera" idea is that all of them (the affordable ones, at least) seem to not shoot 24fps with 48th sec shutter speed (global shutter) at full rez. The shutter speed has to be far shorter. Haven't checked yet but I'm assuming the elphel is a rolling shutter camera as well (?).

Forrest Schultz · March 29th, 2006, 12:30 AM

Alright here it is, it might freeze take a while for the inital load, but be patient. remember to select orignal size for full frame, or wide for a scaled version so it all fits.

and heres the page to view it:
http://media.putfile.com/Forrest-is-crazy

please note: compression isnt 100% original quality, i lost alot of quality, but its orignal size. but im not sure if its saveable to the comp. tommorow i will try a different host site. oh by the way, if it works, i recorded this from indoors to outside through a dirty window. thats why it looks all crazy iwth the dirtiness

Forrest Schultz · March 29th, 2006, 08:23 AM

Wayne, right now, im just working on building the cinema camera, and putting everything together. but i would like Andrey to view the idea and see where he wants to take it.

Serge Victorovich · March 29th, 2006, 10:29 AM

Forrest, you can upload samples to http://www.megaupload.com

Oscar Spierenburg · March 30th, 2006, 08:02 AM

My 12V camera is ready to ship, but I don't know when I receive it, because I live in Europe.
Forrest, what are the specs of your computer? Do you use a PC or a laptop?

Jef Bryant · March 30th, 2006, 09:03 AM

Thanks for putting up the video file. It is a help, and good job showing human motion.

You said the file is not original quality. If you can upload even just the first second of the original file without the additional compression (the part where you jump) somewhere that allows it to be downloaded, I can analyze it much better. There did seem to be a lot of noise or compression in the full-size image. I'm hoping that came from the additional compression.

Sigh. I'm never satisfied. lol. I do appreciate very much the info provided by you so far. Looking forward to learning more about this camera and seeing how clean it can be at it's best.

Thanks again and please carry on.

Forrest Schultz · March 30th, 2006, 09:26 AM

Thanks Jef, ill get another clip in soon

Oscar, im using a PC right now, and its a 1.5 Ghz Pentium 4 processer. Its Windows XP, and with 384 MB of RAM. so i really need to make it faster. but it can still record files from the camera.

Marin Tchergarov · March 30th, 2006, 10:50 PM

Forrest,
I've saw the file too - thanks for sharing!

it is M-JPEG compressed and there is some artefacts (interlaced lines) because of the codec, while the source video is progressive.
You better use DIVX,XVID or "windows media 9" (WMV9) at max quality - the encoded file would be without these lines and smaller in the same time.
If you don't have these codecs (or don't want to mess up your system ) , try to setup your M-JPEG codec to encode in "non-interlaced" mode.

Best Regards!!!

Wayne Morellini · April 1st, 2006, 02:49 AM

I have to say it, but I wonder if the MS Origami mini tablet PC would be suitable for acquisition. This year's models are power hungry (but battery life isn't that bad compared to handy cams of the past) but by the end of the year/next year that could change for better (lower powered processor). There are also all the car pc's, and boards, we explored to the Digital Cinema threads, they are ultra small, about the size of a CD-ROM drive I think. And then, if you go to the www.Via.com.tw website and look up partner products (many categories) you will find Web Tablet like PC's and other things based on Linux (so maybe the software can be compiled on it). You can find a lot of manufacturers of embedded PC/Main boards and miniature PC's there that also carry Intel products.

Just something you might be interested in after you find out if it works.

Compression:
Just of interest, what is the lowest compression you can use and pixel format, at 1920*1080 and at 1280*720 window, 5:1, 2:1 etc? I have given up downloading clips, I only have dial up, and had to pay over 5 times the regular Internet bill last month. The length of mpeg divided by time/fps should give some idea.

Thanks

Wayne.

March 25th, 2006, 06:46 PM	#1
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera I recently did some shots this morning with a model 333 Elphel high defintion network camera. www.elphel.com also go to wiki.elphel.com for more updated information. here are some still grabs from the video, please note, i am not using a correct c-mount lens, as i dont have it yet, but i used a 35mm lens with a wide angle 28mm focal length and just threw a black shirt over the setup. 28mm at 35 film isnt 28mm at 1/2 cmos sensor. so it still gives a telephoto shot. and please note i am out of focus slighty. This was shot at 24fps with a 1/48th shutter speed. the resolution used was 1280x720p: http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tti/beard1.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tti/smile1.jpg to show motion blur: http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ti/motion1.jpg to show dof: http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...etti/hand1.jpg the model 333 can do 1280x1024 at 30fps, 2048x1536@12fps, and higher frame rates can be acheived by scaling resolution further, such as 800x600 or something. you specify exposure time, fps, and everything with the cameras main control window. http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?tit...ol_panel_1.jpg the model 333 costs $800 for the board with the front 3Mpixel sensor. exactly what i have. Andrey Filippov of Elphel was kind enough to let me do these tests and post progress on creating a high definition cinema camera. let me know what you think about the quality of these shots. please note that the jpeg compression quality was set at 70% when i recorded, it can be set all the way to 99%. which in the case no artifacts should ever be seen. but even at 70% you wont see much at all. unless you really anylize it.

March 28th, 2006, 11:16 PM	#5
Jef Bryant Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 31	hey Could you please post a short (a few seconds) of video shot at best possible compression settings, highest possible rez, with 48th sec shutter speed, 24fps? Something with movement in the frame?

March 27th, 2006, 05:57 AM	#2
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	I still think it looks good, but it's hard to see the resolution on these shots. I've talked to Andrey Filippov about a 12V version of the camera, so I can use batteries if I want. I'm still about to order the camera, but was too busy this week.

March 27th, 2006, 08:34 AM	#3
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Good to hear. So, are you saying that he is planning on doing a Digital Cinema camera, or just you? Would be good to see, if it had direct to disk USB/Ethernet, and on camera controls interface (no computer needed) and Ibis5a, I would think it would be almost exactly what we need. Have you tried to find out max Ethernet data rates (min compression ratio), and about the Ogg codec? In the end, the quality of these things is what will deliver the best picture from the micron sensor. Thanks Wayne.

March 27th, 2006, 09:33 PM	#4
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Thanks for the input guys! here, i finally got my c-mount zoom lens and it is awesome! i did some tests. and here they are! This is my friend Eric, this is right after i opened up my lens from the packaging and started using it. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ti/eric001.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...infocus001.jpg here, the leaves in the background are in focus http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...cleaves001.jpg This is my sister and mother. they were very lazy today, it was rainy and cold. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...iafocus001.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...i/oliva001.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ti/mom2001.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...tti/mom001.jpg please note, all these were shot at true 24 fps, and at a 1/48th shutter speed. all these were handheld shots, and get a perfect still is quite hard. Thanks!!! and remember these are actually from the .avi video. try to imagine these shots in motion. thanks!

March 28th, 2006, 11:55 PM	#6
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	jef, i will try, ill find a site that can host video files. thanks

March 29th, 2006, 12:10 AM	#7
Jef Bryant Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 31	Thanks. That will really allow us to see what the possibilities are. The problems I've had with the "build your own HD cine camera" idea is that all of them (the affordable ones, at least) seem to not shoot 24fps with 48th sec shutter speed (global shutter) at full rez. The shutter speed has to be far shorter. Haven't checked yet but I'm assuming the elphel is a rolling shutter camera as well (?).

March 29th, 2006, 12:30 AM	#8
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Alright here it is, it might freeze take a while for the inital load, but be patient. remember to select orignal size for full frame, or wide for a scaled version so it all fits. and heres the page to view it: http://media.putfile.com/Forrest-is-crazy please note: compression isnt 100% original quality, i lost alot of quality, but its orignal size. but im not sure if its saveable to the comp. tommorow i will try a different host site. oh by the way, if it works, i recorded this from indoors to outside through a dirty window. thats why it looks all crazy iwth the dirtiness

March 29th, 2006, 08:23 AM	#9
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Wayne, right now, im just working on building the cinema camera, and putting everything together. but i would like Andrey to view the idea and see where he wants to take it.

March 29th, 2006, 10:29 AM	#10
Serge Victorovich Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 376	Forrest, you can upload samples to http://www.megaupload.com

March 30th, 2006, 08:02 AM	#11
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	My 12V camera is ready to ship, but I don't know when I receive it, because I live in Europe. Forrest, what are the specs of your computer? Do you use a PC or a laptop?

March 30th, 2006, 09:03 AM	#12
Jef Bryant Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 31	Thanks for putting up the video file. It is a help, and good job showing human motion. You said the file is not original quality. If you can upload even just the first second of the original file without the additional compression (the part where you jump) somewhere that allows it to be downloaded, I can analyze it much better. There did seem to be a lot of noise or compression in the full-size image. I'm hoping that came from the additional compression. Sigh. I'm never satisfied. lol. I do appreciate very much the info provided by you so far. Looking forward to learning more about this camera and seeing how clean it can be at it's best. Thanks again and please carry on.

March 30th, 2006, 09:26 AM	#13
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Thanks Jef, ill get another clip in soon Oscar, im using a PC right now, and its a 1.5 Ghz Pentium 4 processer. Its Windows XP, and with 384 MB of RAM. so i really need to make it faster. but it can still record files from the camera.

March 30th, 2006, 10:50 PM	#14
Marin Tchergarov New Boot Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: BG Posts: 19	Forrest, I've saw the file too - thanks for sharing! it is M-JPEG compressed and there is some artefacts (interlaced lines) because of the codec, while the source video is progressive. You better use DIVX,XVID or "windows media 9" (WMV9) at max quality - the encoded file would be without these lines and smaller in the same time. If you don't have these codecs (or don't want to mess up your system ) , try to setup your M-JPEG codec to encode in "non-interlaced" mode. Best Regards!!!

April 1st, 2006, 02:49 AM	#15
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I have to say it, but I wonder if the MS Origami mini tablet PC would be suitable for acquisition. This year's models are power hungry (but battery life isn't that bad compared to handy cams of the past) but by the end of the year/next year that could change for better (lower powered processor). There are also all the car pc's, and boards, we explored to the Digital Cinema threads, they are ultra small, about the size of a CD-ROM drive I think. And then, if you go to the www.Via.com.tw website and look up partner products (many categories) you will find Web Tablet like PC's and other things based on Linux (so maybe the software can be compiled on it). You can find a lot of manufacturers of embedded PC/Main boards and miniature PC's there that also carry Intel products. Just something you might be interested in after you find out if it works. Compression: Just of interest, what is the lowest compression you can use and pixel format, at 19201080 and at 1280720 window, 5:1, 2:1 etc? I have given up downloading clips, I only have dial up, and had to pay over 5 times the regular Internet bill last month. The length of mpeg divided by time/fps should give some idea. Thanks Wayne.