HV20 23.98/24P workflow. Frustrated! at DVinfo.net

Ryan Mueller · March 4th, 2008, 01:43 PM

Hey everyone,

I am at my about to pull all of my hair out dealing with this! First let me tell you what I am trying to do: I am using the HV20 as a second cam to my XL2. I am shooting 24P and editing the footage in a 23.98 SD timline in FCP.

My XL2 footage is rev. telecined in cinema tools to a 23.98 frame rate, it looks awesome!

My HV20 footage is rev. telecined in Compressor, it looks horrible! The image is soft, it has missing frames and duplicate frames. I am trying to rev. telecine the footage to 23.976. I have read and read and followed the instructions on how to do this in compressor.

What am I doing wrong?

Can somebody please list their workflow on HV20 material in a 23.98/24P SD timeline? I would be very grateful and you would probably prevent me from throwing my HV20 through a wall! (joke) The whole reason I bought the cam is because of its 2:3:2:3 pulldown and 24P capabilities. I can't figure it out.

Just as an FYI, I am working on a mac, but it is Intel and I do have access to windows. Would prefer to learn a workflow on the mac though.

Thanks in advance,
Ryan

Chris Barcellos · March 4th, 2008, 02:20 PM

Check out this thread for example of issues involved. Then go to our HV20 Forum to learn more.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109989

Primary issue with 24p from HV20 is getting editor to recognize how the pulldown removal should be done. Canon did not provide flags to do that.

Cineform has conversion system to to that on capture, and there is a "free" process using several free programs out there too. Cineform is supposed to work with MAC too, but my experience is limited to PC side.

Eugenia Loli-Queru · March 4th, 2008, 09:10 PM

The HV20's 24p is not common 24p, which is why it's called PF24. You need to remove pulldown before you edit as 24p. http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/0...-24p-pulldown/

Austin Meyers · March 5th, 2008, 09:25 PM

what exactly is your compressor workflow?

Ryan Mueller · March 5th, 2008, 11:40 PM

Hey Austin,

I am using the workflow off of Apples website. I think I found my problem though, I didn't even think about the fact that if there were breaks where the camera stopped in between takes that it would mess up the pulldown removal.

Found this on the site posted by Eugenia, thanks for that!

I am going to run some more tests when I get some time. Thank you everybody for your help.

Ryan

Austin Meyers · March 6th, 2008, 12:22 AM

ok so i did some playing around and here's what i found...

are the file you output with compressor 29.97 or 23.98?

when you use a standard dv preset and then alter the frame controls for revtel it outputs 29.97 always. the trick is you have to edit the video settings and set the framerate to current for the inverse telecine to work correctly. this is also true of any of the SD presets. as for the softness i think that just might be dv in all it's glory.

and as far as the cadence breaking, that shouldn't be an issue with compressor as it automatically detects cadence (unlike cinema tools)

Peter Moretti · March 6th, 2008, 05:22 AM

Austin,

Breaks only mess up pulldown removal for the HV-20 because it doesn't pulldown flags. But for a program that can do an intelligent telecine removal, breaks are not a problem.

I can say is that TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 is an awesome tool and it will remove the pulldown accurately. It's one of the best $100 purchases I've ever made.

Ryan Mueller · March 6th, 2008, 11:23 AM

Peter,

Thank you for suggesting the TMPGEnc. I will check it out as soon as I get home.

Ryan

Tomas Chinchilla · March 7th, 2008, 06:55 AM

I see people talking about this same subject over and over and using compressor for this......

If you are in Apple try using the FREE "JES Deinterlacer" do a google search for it, it will automatically read the pulldown cadence and output at whatever rate you want 23 or 24 and whatever format you want as well.

It works flawlessly, I usually choose to output 23,976 and use ProRes 422 HQ, is unbelievable how you can manipulate your colors and stuff after it is on that format (it takes abuse well)

Tomas Chinchilla · March 7th, 2008, 06:57 AM

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html

Ryan Mueller · March 7th, 2008, 10:18 AM

Thomas,

I can't thank you enough! Nothing that I have used yet has yielded results that I see as satisfactory, until now. JES is easy to use, it is fast, and it removes the pulldown perfectly. This is the way I would suggest anyone to go in the future. The only method that I didn't try was After Effects, to my knowledge, but that was next on my list. Don't even need to try it. JES detects the cadence breaks, so I don't need to trim my clips either!

After I inverse telecine the footage and set the frame rate to 23.976, the footage looks spectacular in FCP. Did I mention that I am working in an SD timeline? JES has also, somehow, solved my problem of soft-looking SD footage.

Thank you again Thomas,
Ryan

Tomas Chinchilla · March 7th, 2008, 04:33 PM

You are more than welcome.

Glad I can help.

Brian Boyko · March 7th, 2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomas Chinchilla

I see people talking about this same subject over and over and using compressor for this......

If you are in Apple try using the FREE "JES Deinterlacer" do a google search for it, it will automatically read the pulldown cadence and output at whatever rate you want 23 or 24 and whatever format you want as well.

It works flawlessly, I usually choose to output 23,976 and use ProRes 422 HQ, is unbelievable how you can manipulate your colors and stuff after it is on that format (it takes abuse well)

I wouldn't say "flawlessly" but pretty damn close to it.

It's also good for getting 560p60 footage from 1080i60 HDV. I'm experimenting with some of that now.

Austin Meyers · March 8th, 2008, 09:26 AM

I'm still curious about the issues you're having with compressor. Can you post some screen grabs of the compressor output as well as jes? What preset are you using in compressor? And you said that comp is not detecting cadence breaks?

Ryan Mueller · March 8th, 2008, 08:31 PM

Hey Austin,

Here is the process that I used to reverse tele. in compressor:

1. In Final Cut Pro, Log and Capture your clips shot as 1080p24 from the HV20 using the Easy Setup named
"HDV, 29.97, HDV - 1080i60 FireWire Basic".
2. In Compressor, choose Add File and navigate to the capture scratch folder for the clips you captured and
open them all.
3. Select the first clip in the batch.
4. Choose the setting named "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material" (found in Settings tab > Apple > Other
Workflows > Advanced Format Conversions > Apple Codecs), and drag it onto the first clip.
5. Double-click the setting on the first clip to highlight the Inspector window.
6. In Inspector > Encoder Settings > Video Settings, change the framerate to Custom, and enter 23.976.
7. In Inspector > Frame Controls, enable Frame Controls and make the following settings:
1. Set Frame Controls to On
2. Set Deinterlace to Reverse Telecine

So here are a couple of screen shots that depict what I am talking about. If you look at the time-code, you will see that there are two frames back to back that are identical (duplicate frames).

March 4th, 2008, 01:43 PM	#1
Ryan Mueller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO Posts: 336	HV20 23.98/24P workflow. Frustrated! Hey everyone, I am at my about to pull all of my hair out dealing with this! First let me tell you what I am trying to do: I am using the HV20 as a second cam to my XL2. I am shooting 24P and editing the footage in a 23.98 SD timline in FCP. My XL2 footage is rev. telecined in cinema tools to a 23.98 frame rate, it looks awesome! My HV20 footage is rev. telecined in Compressor, it looks horrible! The image is soft, it has missing frames and duplicate frames. I am trying to rev. telecine the footage to 23.976. I have read and read and followed the instructions on how to do this in compressor. What am I doing wrong? Can somebody please list their workflow on HV20 material in a 23.98/24P SD timeline? I would be very grateful and you would probably prevent me from throwing my HV20 through a wall! (joke) The whole reason I bought the cam is because of its 2:3:2:3 pulldown and 24P capabilities. I can't figure it out. Just as an FYI, I am working on a mac, but it is Intel and I do have access to windows. Would prefer to learn a workflow on the mac though. Thanks in advance, Ryan

March 4th, 2008, 02:20 PM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Check out this thread for example of issues involved. Then go to our HV20 Forum to learn more. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109989 Primary issue with 24p from HV20 is getting editor to recognize how the pulldown removal should be done. Canon did not provide flags to do that. Cineform has conversion system to to that on capture, and there is a "free" process using several free programs out there too. Cineform is supposed to work with MAC too, but my experience is limited to PC side. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

March 5th, 2008, 09:25 PM	#4
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	what exactly is your compressor workflow? __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 6th, 2008, 12:22 AM	#6
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	ok so i did some playing around and here's what i found... are the file you output with compressor 29.97 or 23.98? when you use a standard dv preset and then alter the frame controls for revtel it outputs 29.97 always. the trick is you have to edit the video settings and set the framerate to current for the inverse telecine to work correctly. this is also true of any of the SD presets. as for the softness i think that just might be dv in all it's glory. and as far as the cadence breaking, that shouldn't be an issue with compressor as it automatically detects cadence (unlike cinema tools) __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 7th, 2008, 06:55 AM	#9
Tomas Chinchilla Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 212 Images: 8	This Is Funny I see people talking about this same subject over and over and using compressor for this...... If you are in Apple try using the FREE "JES Deinterlacer" do a google search for it, it will automatically read the pulldown cadence and output at whatever rate you want 23 or 24 and whatever format you want as well. It works flawlessly, I usually choose to output 23,976 and use ProRes 422 HQ, is unbelievable how you can manipulate your colors and stuff after it is on that format (it takes abuse well) __________________ Tomas A. Chinchilla \| CANON XH A1, HV20 & HC3 \| Retired Cams: GL2, HC1, FX1, Z1, \| Final Cut Studio 2

March 4th, 2008, 09:10 PM	#3
Eugenia Loli-Queru Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA, USA Posts: 348	The HV20's 24p is not common 24p, which is why it's called PF24. You need to remove pulldown before you edit as 24p. http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/0...-24p-pulldown/

March 5th, 2008, 11:40 PM	#5
Ryan Mueller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO Posts: 336	Hey Austin, I am using the workflow off of Apples website. I think I found my problem though, I didn't even think about the fact that if there were breaks where the camera stopped in between takes that it would mess up the pulldown removal. Found this on the site posted by Eugenia, thanks for that! I am going to run some more tests when I get some time. Thank you everybody for your help. Ryan

March 6th, 2008, 05:22 AM	#7
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Austin, Breaks only mess up pulldown removal for the HV-20 because it doesn't pulldown flags. But for a program that can do an intelligent telecine removal, breaks are not a problem. I can say is that TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 is an awesome tool and it will remove the pulldown accurately. It's one of the best $100 purchases I've ever made.

March 6th, 2008, 11:23 AM	#8
Ryan Mueller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO Posts: 336	Peter, Thank you for suggesting the TMPGEnc. I will check it out as soon as I get home. Ryan

March 7th, 2008, 06:57 AM	#10
Tomas Chinchilla Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 212 Images: 8	Here you go http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html __________________ Tomas A. Chinchilla \| CANON XH A1, HV20 & HC3 \| Retired Cams: GL2, HC1, FX1, Z1, \| Final Cut Studio 2

March 7th, 2008, 10:18 AM	#11
Ryan Mueller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO Posts: 336	Thomas, I can't thank you enough! Nothing that I have used yet has yielded results that I see as satisfactory, until now. JES is easy to use, it is fast, and it removes the pulldown perfectly. This is the way I would suggest anyone to go in the future. The only method that I didn't try was After Effects, to my knowledge, but that was next on my list. Don't even need to try it. JES detects the cadence breaks, so I don't need to trim my clips either! After I inverse telecine the footage and set the frame rate to 23.976, the footage looks spectacular in FCP. Did I mention that I am working in an SD timeline? JES has also, somehow, solved my problem of soft-looking SD footage. Thank you again Thomas, Ryan

March 7th, 2008, 04:33 PM	#12
Tomas Chinchilla Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 212 Images: 8	You are more than welcome. Glad I can help. __________________ Tomas A. Chinchilla \| CANON XH A1, HV20 & HC3 \| Retired Cams: GL2, HC1, FX1, Z1, \| Final Cut Studio 2

March 8th, 2008, 09:26 AM	#14
Austin Meyers Contributor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: austin, tx Posts: 300	I'm still curious about the issues you're having with compressor. Can you post some screen grabs of the compressor output as well as jes? What preset are you using in compressor? And you said that comp is not detecting cadence breaks? __________________ Compositing is my life right now. IMDB page: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3596782/

March 8th, 2008, 08:31 PM	#15
Ryan Mueller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO Posts: 336	Hey Austin, Here is the process that I used to reverse tele. in compressor: 1. In Final Cut Pro, Log and Capture your clips shot as 1080p24 from the HV20 using the Easy Setup named "HDV, 29.97, HDV - 1080i60 FireWire Basic". 2. In Compressor, choose Add File and navigate to the capture scratch folder for the clips you captured and open them all. 3. Select the first clip in the batch. 4. Choose the setting named "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material" (found in Settings tab > Apple > Other Workflows > Advanced Format Conversions > Apple Codecs), and drag it onto the first clip. 5. Double-click the setting on the first clip to highlight the Inspector window. 6. In Inspector > Encoder Settings > Video Settings, change the framerate to Custom, and enter 23.976. 7. In Inspector > Frame Controls, enable Frame Controls and make the following settings: 1. Set Frame Controls to On 2. Set Deinterlace to Reverse Telecine So here are a couple of screen shots that depict what I am talking about. If you look at the time-code, you will see that there are two frames back to back that are identical (duplicate frames). Attached Thumbnails