ATV vibration causing HDV problem? at DVinfo.net

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 07:18 PM

Greetings: This is a long story, I will make it as brief as I can.

I have a Sony HDR-FX1. I tried to use the camera on a GlideCam mounted on a Quad. I have been using the PD 170 on the same mount with stunning results. So I was excited to go to the HD 16x9 format. A big problem came up. First let me say that the GlideCam is possibly the best way to separate a camera from a moving object thus eliminating almost all vibration. It appears that the camera is so smooth the picture would be wonderful, it is on the 170. However, with the FX-1, the picture falls apart so bad it is unusable. All it takes to set the camera off is a gentle twist of the throttle raising the RPM ever so slightly. This camera can not handle any vibration at all. I mean very little vibration. I had a discussion going here at dvinfo.net a few months back. Everyone thought I had a bad unit. So I sent it in. After replacing the lens assembly, they sent it back and it still had the same problem. Sent it in again and they replaced the stabilizer circuit board. Sent it back to me again and the problem was not fixed. So at this time, this is what sony has to say about the HDV format in general.

From the Sony repair center:

"My apologies for the late reply -- but, we wanted to verify a few things with other Sony groups both here and overseas.

In your email below, you mention that you have mounted the camcorder on an atv. Although you felt the vibration was minimal, the steadyshot feature was not working.

Under page 95 of the owner's manual, the instructions do address certain conditions that may cause the camcorder to fail -- and, mechanical vibration is one of those conditions. We contacted the engineering team in Japan and they verified that the HDRFX1 is not designed to be mounted on moving vehicles such as your application. The steadyshot feature is intended for handheld use. Although you may have acquaintences that have been successful in using the camcorder mounted to some kind of vehicle, we cannot guarantee the camera performance as such since it is outside the scope of the intended use.

Please let me know if I can answer any other questions or concerns you may have.

Sincerely Yours,
Manager, Repair Operations
EMCS-A Service Company, San Diego

Now keep in mind that I never said the steady shot was the problem. In fact, I had it off. It only got worse with it on in all settings. Take note of what the Sony team has to say.

" We contacted the engineering team in Japan and they verified that the HDRFX1 is not designed to be mounted on moving vehicles such as your application. "

This camera is a terrible investment if you are hoping to use it anyplace but on a tripod. I'm stuck with a camera I can hardly use because of the nature of my current productions. And at this point, the Sony repair team will not even return an email to me. I would bet they marked my address as junk mail to get rid of me. So be the nature of Sony Repair.

If anyone can either confirm or prove me wrong about my camera I would greatly appreciate it. Is anyone using the HDV format on a moving vehicle with any success? Is there anyone willing to do a vibration test with their HDV camera? It doesn't take much to set it off.

This is a warning, The Sony HDV format is very limited....

You can see a test video of the problem at this address:

http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/HDVtest.html

Sincerely.. Ken Eberhard

Chris Hurd · August 22nd, 2005, 07:48 PM

Hi Ken, I wouldn't say that you are "stuck with the camera," as you can always sell it, and probably get a very good price for it in our Private Classifieds forum. One way to tell whether or not this is a limitation of the HDV format would be for someone to try the same sort of test with the Sony HDR-HC1, a different HDV camcorder. Could you be more specific as to how your GlideCam is mounted to your ATV?

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 08:37 PM

I have mounted the glidecam via a hard mount, all the way to a very padded, air tube mount. I have found that the way the GlideCam separates movement by having several 360 degree elbows at different spots eliminating forward and back motion and the adjustable spring for up and down motion does the best job even on a hard mount. All my efforts, a weeks worth of experimenting with different ways to mount it. All proved that the GlideCam should be all that is needed. I swear, you can't see the vibration with the naked eye. It is so smooth, yet very little vibration destroys the compression totally. At least that's the way I understand the problem. Maybe a progressive HDV would work. But the interlaced is just trashed by the vibration. I might add that I am living in lower Baja Mexico and getting things back and forth reliably is a commercial plane ticket. I have spent a small fortune in wasted production time with this camera. I tried to do a cross peninsula quad trip from sun up to sun down in March. Talent flew in with my new camera. All wasted. This has been a very expensive lesson for me. I wish Sony listed the limitations up front with this format. And yes, I would love it if someone could perform a test on another HDV camera. That would be great.

Thanks for you time, but please warn other perspective buyers. This format is very fragile.

Ken...

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 08:40 PM

I have a video posted with the PD170 being used. You can see how well the mount works with DV footage.

http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/QuadHeaven.html

Nigel Traill · August 22nd, 2005, 08:42 PM

Ken,

I've read elsewhere of people having trouble shooting out of helicopters - with the Z1 actually mounted to the chopper. The Sony reply to you suggested that you had written of other FX1/Z1 users who didn't have the problems despite attaching their devices to vehicles? Is that right?

Personally I'd wouldn't attach my Z1 to anything that would shake it as thoroughly as a quad, mountain bike, helicopter etc - and I guess it's too heavy for helmetcam. Of course the new Sony HDV camcorder is the perfect size to gaffer tape to your Shoei - and with all that movement, you wouldn't miss the difference to the FX.

Boyd Ostroff · August 22nd, 2005, 08:45 PM

I think the following thread discusses similar problems, and it's been mentioned before in other threads:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49508

Although it's not the solution you're hoping for, you should be able to shoot in DVCAM mode (SD) and avoid the problem. At least it would give you much better 16:9 than your PD-170....

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 08:51 PM

Yes, on this forum I had a man tell me that he had it attached via suction cups to the gas tank of a motorcross bike doing fifty foot jumps and he was happy with the picture.

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 08:56 PM

Recording in DV mode has the same artifacts. That was one of the reasons we all thought it was the camera itself, rather than the format... but that was wrong... it must convert the HDV to DV. That would be my guess with the results I have had.

Heath McKnight · August 22nd, 2005, 09:08 PM

We did extensive Glidecam (V16 or V20) last December in 1080i mode on the FX1 with NO problems whatsoever. Were you on CineFrame 24, by chance, because that has a problem with motion.

heath

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 09:31 PM

I'm on the V8, loaded with extra weight to smooth the up and down with rough terrane on the quad. Being on a GlideCam walking is no problem... It's the motor vibration, ever so small, that effects the picture... Take a look at the first posting. http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/HDVtest.html

I've even worn the GlideCam vest on the quad rather than mounted to the quads rack and it helps a lot. But the little bit of engine vibe that gets to the camera destroys the image even with that much separation. And that's sitting still giving the engine a very slight increase in RPM!!!!! That sensitive!!!!

The second movie posted shows my particular usage and how well the PD-170 works.

http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/QuadHeaven.html

The 16x9 video on that tape was shot with the FX-1, tripod mount. All the moving footage was with the PD-170 mounted on the quad.

Thanks, I'd love to find out I'm wrong... Ken

Heath McKnight · August 22nd, 2005, 09:39 PM

No need to add < and > on your url post. Leave it blank, but put in the http://

heath

Ken Eberhard · August 22nd, 2005, 09:50 PM

Sorry, didn't answer your whole question... No CineFrame at all. No effects... Actually I tried everything, every setting, every mode. The cleanest picture was with everything off and locked down on manual settings.

Allen Lu · August 22nd, 2005, 10:22 PM

You know, I just bought the FX1, having to negotiate a long time that I'd like for once to get a nice cam. I wont be strapping this $$$ cam to anything that vibrates like that. For one thing I dont see how the inability to strap your FX1 to an ATV to get a smooth pic has to do with major downfall of the HDV format. So what is wrong with the format again?

Greg Boston · August 22nd, 2005, 10:37 PM

This may be out in left field a little bit Ken, but have you considered that it may not be mechanical vibration that's wreaking havoc with your camera. What if engine ignition electrical noise is getting radiated into the camera? This would explain how it is affecting all modes of operation. The PD-170 may somehow have more shielding in its design even if by accident.

Can you try mounting the camera on another vehicle? Since you feel the vibration is pretty well isolated in the design of your mount, it's time to think outside the box.

I should say that I didn't actually go watch the movies and I don't own the Sony cam to check it myself. I just have a technician background and I've seen some very weird stuff happen when rf energy gets where it isn't supposed to be. If you do have ignition noise, it will be all over the frequency spectrum.

Good luck,

-gb-

Chris Hurd · August 22nd, 2005, 11:22 PM

Actually Greg the electrical or electromagnetic interference you're suggesting sounds to me like a much more likely culprit than physical vibration.

And yes I am changing the title of this thread from the rather alarmist "Sony Admits Major Problem with HDV format" to something a little more focused, such as "ATV vibration causing HDV problem?"

For Ken, I realize and acknowledge that this is a major problem for *you,* but not necessarily for the HDV world at large because not everybody puts their camcorder on a four-wheeler. Thus the discussion subject title change.

August 22nd, 2005, 07:18 PM	#1
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	ATV vibration causing HDV problem? Greetings: This is a long story, I will make it as brief as I can. I have a Sony HDR-FX1. I tried to use the camera on a GlideCam mounted on a Quad. I have been using the PD 170 on the same mount with stunning results. So I was excited to go to the HD 16x9 format. A big problem came up. First let me say that the GlideCam is possibly the best way to separate a camera from a moving object thus eliminating almost all vibration. It appears that the camera is so smooth the picture would be wonderful, it is on the 170. However, with the FX-1, the picture falls apart so bad it is unusable. All it takes to set the camera off is a gentle twist of the throttle raising the RPM ever so slightly. This camera can not handle any vibration at all. I mean very little vibration. I had a discussion going here at dvinfo.net a few months back. Everyone thought I had a bad unit. So I sent it in. After replacing the lens assembly, they sent it back and it still had the same problem. Sent it in again and they replaced the stabilizer circuit board. Sent it back to me again and the problem was not fixed. So at this time, this is what sony has to say about the HDV format in general. From the Sony repair center: "My apologies for the late reply -- but, we wanted to verify a few things with other Sony groups both here and overseas. In your email below, you mention that you have mounted the camcorder on an atv. Although you felt the vibration was minimal, the steadyshot feature was not working. Under page 95 of the owner's manual, the instructions do address certain conditions that may cause the camcorder to fail -- and, mechanical vibration is one of those conditions. We contacted the engineering team in Japan and they verified that the HDRFX1 is not designed to be mounted on moving vehicles such as your application. The steadyshot feature is intended for handheld use. Although you may have acquaintences that have been successful in using the camcorder mounted to some kind of vehicle, we cannot guarantee the camera performance as such since it is outside the scope of the intended use. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions or concerns you may have. Sincerely Yours, Manager, Repair Operations EMCS-A Service Company, San Diego Now keep in mind that I never said the steady shot was the problem. In fact, I had it off. It only got worse with it on in all settings. Take note of what the Sony team has to say. " We contacted the engineering team in Japan and they verified that the HDRFX1 is not designed to be mounted on moving vehicles such as your application. " This camera is a terrible investment if you are hoping to use it anyplace but on a tripod. I'm stuck with a camera I can hardly use because of the nature of my current productions. And at this point, the Sony repair team will not even return an email to me. I would bet they marked my address as junk mail to get rid of me. So be the nature of Sony Repair. If anyone can either confirm or prove me wrong about my camera I would greatly appreciate it. Is anyone using the HDV format on a moving vehicle with any success? Is there anyone willing to do a vibration test with their HDV camera? It doesn't take much to set it off. This is a warning, The Sony HDV format is very limited.... You can see a test video of the problem at this address: http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/HDVtest.html Sincerely.. Ken Eberhard

August 22nd, 2005, 07:48 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Hi Ken, I wouldn't say that you are "stuck with the camera," as you can always sell it, and probably get a very good price for it in our Private Classifieds forum. One way to tell whether or not this is a limitation of the HDV format would be for someone to try the same sort of test with the Sony HDR-HC1, a different HDV camcorder. Could you be more specific as to how your GlideCam is mounted to your ATV? __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

August 22nd, 2005, 08:37 PM	#3
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	mount I have mounted the glidecam via a hard mount, all the way to a very padded, air tube mount. I have found that the way the GlideCam separates movement by having several 360 degree elbows at different spots eliminating forward and back motion and the adjustable spring for up and down motion does the best job even on a hard mount. All my efforts, a weeks worth of experimenting with different ways to mount it. All proved that the GlideCam should be all that is needed. I swear, you can't see the vibration with the naked eye. It is so smooth, yet very little vibration destroys the compression totally. At least that's the way I understand the problem. Maybe a progressive HDV would work. But the interlaced is just trashed by the vibration. I might add that I am living in lower Baja Mexico and getting things back and forth reliably is a commercial plane ticket. I have spent a small fortune in wasted production time with this camera. I tried to do a cross peninsula quad trip from sun up to sun down in March. Talent flew in with my new camera. All wasted. This has been a very expensive lesson for me. I wish Sony listed the limitations up front with this format. And yes, I would love it if someone could perform a test on another HDV camera. That would be great. Thanks for you time, but please warn other perspective buyers. This format is very fragile. Ken... Last edited by Ken Eberhard; August 22nd, 2005 at 11:33 PM.

August 22nd, 2005, 08:40 PM	#4
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	PD 170 footage. I have a video posted with the PD170 being used. You can see how well the mount works with DV footage. http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/QuadHeaven.html

August 22nd, 2005, 08:51 PM	#7
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	other users Yes, on this forum I had a man tell me that he had it attached via suction cups to the gas tank of a motorcross bike doing fifty foot jumps and he was happy with the picture.

August 22nd, 2005, 08:42 PM	#5
Nigel Traill New Boot Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 21	Ken, I've read elsewhere of people having trouble shooting out of helicopters - with the Z1 actually mounted to the chopper. The Sony reply to you suggested that you had written of other FX1/Z1 users who didn't have the problems despite attaching their devices to vehicles? Is that right? Personally I'd wouldn't attach my Z1 to anything that would shake it as thoroughly as a quad, mountain bike, helicopter etc - and I guess it's too heavy for helmetcam. Of course the new Sony HDV camcorder is the perfect size to gaffer tape to your Shoei - and with all that movement, you wouldn't miss the difference to the FX.

August 22nd, 2005, 08:45 PM	#6
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,800	I think the following thread discusses similar problems, and it's been mentioned before in other threads: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49508 Although it's not the solution you're hoping for, you should be able to shoot in DVCAM mode (SD) and avoid the problem. At least it would give you much better 16:9 than your PD-170....

August 22nd, 2005, 08:56 PM	#8
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	DV mode Recording in DV mode has the same artifacts. That was one of the reasons we all thought it was the camera itself, rather than the format... but that was wrong... it must convert the HDV to DV. That would be my guess with the results I have had.

August 22nd, 2005, 09:08 PM	#9
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	We did extensive Glidecam (V16 or V20) last December in 1080i mode on the FX1 with NO problems whatsoever. Were you on CineFrame 24, by chance, because that has a problem with motion. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

August 22nd, 2005, 09:31 PM	#10
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	I'm on the V8, loaded with extra weight to smooth the up and down with rough terrane on the quad. Being on a GlideCam walking is no problem... It's the motor vibration, ever so small, that effects the picture... Take a look at the first posting. http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/HDVtest.html I've even worn the GlideCam vest on the quad rather than mounted to the quads rack and it helps a lot. But the little bit of engine vibe that gets to the camera destroys the image even with that much separation. And that's sitting still giving the engine a very slight increase in RPM!!!!! That sensitive!!!! The second movie posted shows my particular usage and how well the PD-170 works. http://homepage.mac.com/kene3/QuadHeaven.html The 16x9 video on that tape was shot with the FX-1, tripod mount. All the moving footage was with the PD-170 mounted on the quad. Thanks, I'd love to find out I'm wrong... Ken

August 22nd, 2005, 09:39 PM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	No need to add < and > on your url post. Leave it blank, but put in the http:// heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

August 22nd, 2005, 09:50 PM	#12
Ken Eberhard Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Baja California, Sur, Mexico Posts: 48	Sorry, didn't answer your whole question... No CineFrame at all. No effects... Actually I tried everything, every setting, every mode. The cleanest picture was with everything off and locked down on manual settings.

August 22nd, 2005, 10:22 PM	#13
Allen Lu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 65	Change the title You know, I just bought the FX1, having to negotiate a long time that I'd like for once to get a nice cam. I wont be strapping this $$$ cam to anything that vibrates like that. For one thing I dont see how the inability to strap your FX1 to an ATV to get a smooth pic has to do with major downfall of the HDV format. So what is wrong with the format again?

August 22nd, 2005, 10:37 PM	#14
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	This may be out in left field a little bit Ken, but have you considered that it may not be mechanical vibration that's wreaking havoc with your camera. What if engine ignition electrical noise is getting radiated into the camera? This would explain how it is affecting all modes of operation. The PD-170 may somehow have more shielding in its design even if by accident. Can you try mounting the camera on another vehicle? Since you feel the vibration is pretty well isolated in the design of your mount, it's time to think outside the box. I should say that I didn't actually go watch the movies and I don't own the Sony cam to check it myself. I just have a technician background and I've seen some very weird stuff happen when rf energy gets where it isn't supposed to be. If you do have ignition noise, it will be all over the frequency spectrum. Good luck, -gb-

August 22nd, 2005, 11:22 PM	#15
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Actually Greg the electrical or electromagnetic interference you're suggesting sounds to me like a much more likely culprit than physical vibration. And yes I am changing the title of this thread from the rather alarmist "Sony Admits Major Problem with HDV format" to something a little more focused, such as "ATV vibration causing HDV problem?" For Ken, I realize and acknowledge that this is a major problem for you, but not necessarily for the HDV world at large because not everybody puts their camcorder on a four-wheeler. Thus the discussion subject title change. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!