CineForm workflow questions

[David Cherniack]

David,

Here's an idea for a potentially interesting workflow that provides a variety of distribution options.

Shoot in 25 fps cineframe mode ( either with an FX1e or a Z1)

Post at 24 fps ( the 4% slow down not being a problem) for tape to film - alterntively do 3:2 pulldown for broadcast in 60i countries

Run a version at 25 fps for broadcast in 50i counties.

Any general comments or issues with the Aspect/Prospect codecs?

Thanks,
David

[David Newman]

We have though about an automatic 25p to 24p conversion during capture, the only issue is audio sync with pitch correction. So it is not technically a video issue. It may happen is a future release as this is just the sort of feature we plan to add to Aspect HD, keeping it fresh and doing things that native editing can't easily do.

[David Cherniack]

Is it not possible just to set up a PPro project as 23.996 fps and import the 25 fps footage, accepting the 4% audo slowdown ? It's hardly notceable for most things.

[David Cherniack]

Or alternatively, post the project at 25i and do the 24 fps and 3:2 pulldown after....

[David Newman]

Doing the 25 to 24 later (for now) works better due to the way Premiere handles footage re-interperation. A 25P clip can be interperated as 23.976, but you have to manually do this one at a time -- clips don't automatically slow down when the project setting is a slower frame rate. Also doing it this way you also don't get the audio pitch correction. If we handle this during capture, these issues go away.

[Josef Crow]

Sounds like a great idea. a couple questions:

if you convert 25p to 24, does that still involve slowing down the footage, or would Aspect compensate somehow?

the obvious next question is: if i record separately to a DAT (or anything other than the camera), would i still need to slow down the sound?

If you could convert to 24p without making me futz with the sound, you'd be doing us all a great favor.

thanks

[David Cherniack]

Josef,

If you record to an external medium you can use just about any audio program to change speed without changing pitch. Samplitude offers a number of different algorithms for doing it. I'm sure there's a way in the Adobe sound app, too.

This also offers a way to deal with pitch sensitive recorded material.

David

[Carl Merritt]

Hi,
My employers are considering purchasing the Z1U as a step toward HD. As an experiment, I suggested we rent one camera to use for shooting a presentation music video we have to do that has lots of greenscreen.

The idea is to improve acquisition for our shoots.

Anyway, we have a dual 3Ghz Xeon system with Premiere Pro, that I plan to use to do the edit. It has 1gb ram, but only one SCSI drive. Two monitors running 1280x1024, but no HD display.

Can I DL the Premiere Pro HDV plugin and capture to this system, or is an AspectHD type-tool required?

Either way, can I then edit the raw HDV files, or should I render out proxy footge, or perhaps capture DV and edit, then batch capture the final edit as HDV?

My final step, in the plan, is to render out full-size frame sequences to do the comp in AE, then downconvert to SD for distribution.

Should this work? Am I missing something?
Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[Peter Rixner]

Hi Carl,

that will work. I do so all the time since I got my Z1.
I capture the HDV Material with the Prem 1.5.1 update.
Then I recapture the same Clip as SD (sometimes there's another in and out point after capturing, make sure to check that after capturing the HDV) and use this SD for editing. Then when finished editing I break the connection to the sd files and reconnect them with HD Files. Very easy.

For Aftereffects work I export the HDV as a TARGA sequence. Seems to be the best format for all Programs, even when leaving the windows world.

The only thing I recomment in addition:

I did't find a good way to downscale the Material to SD with Software. The Z1 itself does a superb Downconversion in real time. So I output the whole, finished Project as HDV to the Camera (even for future use) and the get it back in with the Z1 downconversion.

All in all: It works and the results (especially for Keying) are simply astounding.

Greetings

Peter

[Carl Merritt]

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Rixner : Hi Carl,

that will work. I do so all the time since I got my Z1.
I capture the HDV Material with the Prem 1.5.1 update.
Then I recapture the same Clip as SD (sometimes there's another in and out point after capturing, make sure to check that after capturing the HDV) and use this SD for editing. Then when finished editing I break the connection to the sd files and reconnect them with HD Files. Very easy.

For Aftereffects work I export the HDV as a TARGA sequence. Seems to be the best format for all Programs, even when leaving the windows world.

The only thing I recomment in addition:

I did't find a good way to downscale the Material to SD with Software. The Z1 itself does a superb Downconversion in real time. So I output the whole, finished Project as HDV to the Camera (even for future use) and the get it back in with the Z1 downconversion.

All in all: It works and the results (especially for Keying) are simply astounding.

Greetings

Peter -->>>

Hi, Peter.
About the recapture. You said you relink to the HDV?
Does this mean you capture twice with the same clip names?
Is it possible to capture DV, edit, and then only recapture the clips used in the Timeline at HDV resolution?

Finally, I read in the readme notes that Premiere will reset the inpoint to the nearest i-frame to account for the GOP, is this what causes the in-point change?

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

-Carl

[Peter Rixner]

The batch capturing of the only-needed clips would be great, but seems not to work.

But as the datarate of HDV is as small as SD I keep both files on disk and simply change the link in Premiere.

But great to read from you, that there is a explanation for that timecodeshift I experienced.

As for this timecode change to the i-frames or whatever, it is not possible with just capturing the used clips after editing SD.

Let's see with Premiere 2.0 :)

Peter

[Gabor Lacza]

Is this Workflow makes sense??

1. Capture HDV or the new ProHD format to Cineform Avi (CFHD Codec) in 1280x720/24p. Edit the entire movie real time in Premiere Pro (Aspect HD) in CFHD (Cineform High Definition codec) and when editing finished, export as uncompressed 720/24p HD with Blackmagic codec.

2. Do Color Correction in Premire Pro 1.5.1(Color Finesse) in Uncompressed 720/24p Blackmagic HD and export as again uncompressed 720/24p HD with Blackmagic codec.

3. Import this file to After effects do the final touches of the editing here and again export it as uncompressed 720/24p HD with Blackmagic codec.

4. Import this file into Abode Audition and do all audio editing with or without surround. Export completed movie now with complete audio track as uncompressed 720/24p HD with Blackmagic codec.

5. Import this file into Encore DVD and export it as various formats like: mpeg2-ts 1920x1080 to D-VHS, SD-Mpeg2 for DVD and HD-DVD with WM9 codec.


Does this make sense or not????? Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Alex Raskin]

Originally Posted by Gabor Lacza

Is this Workflow makes sense??

1. Capture HDV or the new ProHD format to Cineform Avi (CFHD Codec) in 1280x720/24p.

How? To my knowledge, Cineform's HDLink does not have capability to re-scale the original 1440x1080 signal (as comes from FX1)?

[David Newman]

Alex, no rescale is needed as the ProHD format (JVC) is 1280x720 at a true 24p.

Gabor, we don't see the need for working in uncompressed at any stage during the workflow. If you after additional quality, using Prospect HD will give a 10bit workflow with 10bit color correction using Color Finesse within PPro (CF directly works with PHD's deep color format.) Without PHD Color Finesse within PPro is 8bit, even on uncompressed data. Plus Step 2 would be best done on the orginal CFHD timeline as at least your edits are still intact, allowing you to easily color correct on edit boundaries.

[Ken Hodson]

David as soon as Prospect falls from the minimum package cost of $2500 USD, we can talk ;>)
Untill then Gabors work flow is OK if he changes his CC to being done in After Effects Pro, so he can take advantage of 10bit CC.

Daivd- "Without PHD Color Finesse within PPro is 8bit, even on uncompressed data. "

How about in After Effects Pro?