Manual exposure and shutter control for HV10 & HV20 at DVinfo.net

Chris Hurd · January 31st, 2007, 09:52 PM

Sorry to have to ask this, but the last time I had an HV10 in my hands, I neglected to find out for myself. So I'm wondering if you could try this for me...

With the camcorder switched to "Tv" (shutter priority) mode, press the Exp. button on the back of the cam. Anything happen? I'm hoping it'll give you an iris slider in the viewfinder display, with the ability to adjust exposure up or down a few stops using the Set dial.

From what I've read in the owner's manual, it looks like the Exp. button has no effect when the camera is in the Tv program mode. If you can confirm or deny this, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks in advance,

Brad Vaughan · January 31st, 2007, 10:17 PM

yes there is a slider.

-11 to +5 ...

actually -11 to +11
I stand corrected (see below).

Lloyd Coleman · January 31st, 2007, 10:58 PM

The range is actually -11 to +11 if there is enough adjustment left in the iris. So, if the camera is already wide open you will only have -11 to 0, if the camera is stopped all the way down you will have 0 to +11. Most of the time you will have somewhere in between available.

Chris Hurd · January 31st, 2007, 11:21 PM

Bingo. That's your manual control mode then... or at least, as close as you're going to get to full manual control with these camcorders. Set your desired shutter speed with Tv mode, and then press the Exp. button for Exposure Lock, giving you manual control of the aperture.

I was hoping this would be the case. Thanks fellows,

Meryem Ersoz · February 1st, 2007, 09:39 AM

yeah, what those guys said!

that's exactly the mode i used to shoot about 90% of the desert footage....

Chris Hurd · February 1st, 2007, 01:43 PM

Great -- plus, lock in one of the three zoom speed presets, choose either 70% or 100% zebra and perhaps manual focus, and that's a fair amount of manual control for a consumer-level camcorder.

Gary Barr · February 1st, 2007, 02:05 PM

yeah, that's how I've been doing it Chris, and you do get used to the controls after a while, like any cam. don't like the gain doing what it wants unchecked though, even when you use the exp lock and slider - how can you know when the gain is kicking in over iris?

does the HV20 offer any control over gain? that above any of the other new features (well maybe the progressive too!) would do it for me.

Gary Barr · February 1st, 2007, 02:20 PM

sorry Chris, just re-read your skinny on the HV20 and you say there that there is an option to switch on AGC in the menus. that's a big plus with the 3 instead of 5 lux sensitivity.

Tom Voigt · February 3rd, 2007, 03:07 PM

Keep this quiet guys.

Manual control on the Optura Pi (and probably works similarly on a number of Canon camcorders).

Set Shutter to 1/60th.

For low-light situations:
- Set mode to Auto.
- Put your hand over the lens and push the EXP button.
- You are now wide open at +18 db gain.
- Roll the control wheel to take you from +18db (0) to +1.5db (-11) in 1.5 db steps.

For instance a well-lit theater might be -8 (1/60, f1.6 +6db gain).

For not so low-light situations:
- Set mode to Spotlight (disables gain up).
- Put your hand over the lens and push the EXP button.
- You are now wide open at +0db gain.
- Roll the control wheel to go from f1.6 (0) to - whatever in 1/4 f clicks.

Remember, this is secret!

-Tom-

Brad Vaughan · February 3rd, 2007, 05:20 PM

We will:

Keep it secret : Keep it safe!

:)

Tim Le · February 9th, 2007, 10:44 PM

I've done some more experimenting with the HV10. In Tv mode and the EXP button pressed, AGC is off but that doesn't mean gain is locked out. If you increase the exposure beyond the maximum aperture, gain will be added. But if you dial it down, the gain goes away (but the picture becomes correspondingly darker). Your range of adjustment depends on the initial exposure before you pressed the EXP button. There is no display saying when you've reached the maximum aperture and when the gain kicks in so you don't really know when that happens. But you can see the noise in the LCD pretty well so what works for me is to watch the zebras and back off on the exposure a few clicks.

In the HV20, you can turn off the AGC. I wonder if that only affects gain in the auto and semi-auto modes. While in Tv mode, you probably can still add gain with the EXP button even with AGC off. But with the ability to turn off AGC in Tv mode, you'd get to a cleaner picture faster than with the HV10 method of pressing the EXP button and dialing it down. Having the ability to disable the AGC is definitely a useful feature in the HV20.

Patrick Jennings · March 10th, 2007, 02:04 AM

thank you. you just saved me so much money.
hopefully you will be able to do this with the HV20 as well. i assume so. but you can't be sure until it's out. does any body know for sure yet?

I'm going to check this out tomorrow at a camera store with the HV10.
the HV20 with a 35mm adapter and a balance box is going to be awesome!

Dennis Wood · April 2nd, 2007, 09:28 PM

I was a bit concerned about manual control after trying out the HV20 today. My concerns are somewhat allayed after reading this post and doing some experimentation. If someone comes out with a camera with the HV20 imagery, and the GS400 controls...look out. After getting used to that "consumer" cam's manual controls, the HV20 is a bit of a disappointment.

In any case, I placed the HV20 in shutter priority mode (TV), pressed the joystick to bring up EXP and toggled it on. I went from -11 to +11 and then observed the aperture blades directly looking through the lens both with an LED headlamp, and then at an angle with overhead light. It is very apparent that the gradient will vary depending on the auto exposure level the camera has dialed in when you engage exposure control.

Based on my initial observations, here is what I would suggest for adapter use shooting 24P.

1. Set zebras at 70%
2. Set camera to 24P mode
3. Switch to TV mode, and set at 1/48s
4. Frame a shot so about 50% of the frame is displaying zebras. This is so the cam is neither fully gained up, or fully stopped down. It's just an approx. baseline.
5. Press joystick and toggle EXP on.
6. At this point here is a rough guide to what the EXP settings correspond to.

-11 = Aperture 80% closed, ND2 fully engaged.
-6 = Aperture 80% closed, ND2 full disengaged, ND1 visible.
0 = Apeture fully closed, ND1 disengaged completely.
+5 = Aperture 50% open.
+11 = Aperture 100% open.

If you engage EXP with TV on and shutter at 1/48s but the cam pointed zoomed in on a light, you'll see 100% aperture closed, and I'd guess 100% ND filter engagement too.

I have the flip solution sorted for the HV20 ... pics to come later :-)

David Garvin · April 10th, 2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Wood

I have the flip solution sorted for the HV20 ... pics to come later :-)

I know you're busy, but is there any more info on this flip solution?
Thanks

Rob Unck · April 10th, 2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Garvin

I know you're busy, but is there any more info on this flip solution?
Thanks

I believe it's this:
http://www.cinevate.com/phpBB2/viewt...431f79b7b3f87e

January 31st, 2007, 09:52 PM	#1
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Manual exposure and shutter control for HV10 & HV20 Sorry to have to ask this, but the last time I had an HV10 in my hands, I neglected to find out for myself. So I'm wondering if you could try this for me... With the camcorder switched to "Tv" (shutter priority) mode, press the Exp. button on the back of the cam. Anything happen? I'm hoping it'll give you an iris slider in the viewfinder display, with the ability to adjust exposure up or down a few stops using the Set dial. From what I've read in the owner's manual, it looks like the Exp. button has no effect when the camera is in the Tv program mode. If you can confirm or deny this, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks in advance, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 31st, 2007, 10:17 PM	#2
Brad Vaughan Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Va Beach, Va Posts: 241	yes there is a slider. -11 to +5 ... actually -11 to +11 I stand corrected (see below). Last edited by Brad Vaughan; January 31st, 2007 at 11:26 PM.

January 31st, 2007, 11:21 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Bingo. That's your manual control mode then... or at least, as close as you're going to get to full manual control with these camcorders. Set your desired shutter speed with Tv mode, and then press the Exp. button for Exposure Lock, giving you manual control of the aperture. I was hoping this would be the case. Thanks fellows, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 1st, 2007, 01:43 PM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Great -- plus, lock in one of the three zoom speed presets, choose either 70% or 100% zebra and perhaps manual focus, and that's a fair amount of manual control for a consumer-level camcorder. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

February 3rd, 2007, 03:07 PM	#9
Tom Voigt Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 92	Shhh! You're Talking About the Secret Manual Control! Keep this quiet guys. Manual control on the Optura Pi (and probably works similarly on a number of Canon camcorders). Set Shutter to 1/60th. For low-light situations: - Set mode to Auto. - Put your hand over the lens and push the EXP button. - You are now wide open at +18 db gain. - Roll the control wheel to take you from +18db (0) to +1.5db (-11) in 1.5 db steps. For instance a well-lit theater might be -8 (1/60, f1.6 +6db gain). For not so low-light situations: - Set mode to Spotlight (disables gain up). - Put your hand over the lens and push the EXP button. - You are now wide open at +0db gain. - Roll the control wheel to go from f1.6 (0) to - whatever in 1/4 f clicks. Remember, this is secret! -Tom-

January 31st, 2007, 10:58 PM	#3
Lloyd Coleman Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 256	The range is actually -11 to +11 if there is enough adjustment left in the iris. So, if the camera is already wide open you will only have -11 to 0, if the camera is stopped all the way down you will have 0 to +11. Most of the time you will have somewhere in between available.

February 1st, 2007, 09:39 AM	#5
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	yeah, what those guys said! that's exactly the mode i used to shoot about 90% of the desert footage....

February 1st, 2007, 02:05 PM	#7
Gary Barr Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 186	yeah, that's how I've been doing it Chris, and you do get used to the controls after a while, like any cam. don't like the gain doing what it wants unchecked though, even when you use the exp lock and slider - how can you know when the gain is kicking in over iris? does the HV20 offer any control over gain? that above any of the other new features (well maybe the progressive too!) would do it for me.

February 1st, 2007, 02:20 PM	#8
Gary Barr Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 186	sorry Chris, just re-read your skinny on the HV20 and you say there that there is an option to switch on AGC in the menus. that's a big plus with the 3 instead of 5 lux sensitivity.

February 3rd, 2007, 05:20 PM	#10
Brad Vaughan Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Va Beach, Va Posts: 241	We will: Keep it secret : Keep it safe! :)

February 9th, 2007, 10:44 PM	#11
Tim Le Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 350	Controlling Gain in the HV10 I've done some more experimenting with the HV10. In Tv mode and the EXP button pressed, AGC is off but that doesn't mean gain is locked out. If you increase the exposure beyond the maximum aperture, gain will be added. But if you dial it down, the gain goes away (but the picture becomes correspondingly darker). Your range of adjustment depends on the initial exposure before you pressed the EXP button. There is no display saying when you've reached the maximum aperture and when the gain kicks in so you don't really know when that happens. But you can see the noise in the LCD pretty well so what works for me is to watch the zebras and back off on the exposure a few clicks. In the HV20, you can turn off the AGC. I wonder if that only affects gain in the auto and semi-auto modes. While in Tv mode, you probably can still add gain with the EXP button even with AGC off. But with the ability to turn off AGC in Tv mode, you'd get to a cleaner picture faster than with the HV10 method of pressing the EXP button and dialing it down. Having the ability to disable the AGC is definitely a useful feature in the HV20.

March 10th, 2007, 02:04 AM	#12
Patrick Jennings New Boot Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 18	thank you. you just saved me so much money. hopefully you will be able to do this with the HV20 as well. i assume so. but you can't be sure until it's out. does any body know for sure yet? I'm going to check this out tomorrow at a camera store with the HV10. the HV20 with a 35mm adapter and a balance box is going to be awesome!

April 2nd, 2007, 09:28 PM	#13
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	I was a bit concerned about manual control after trying out the HV20 today. My concerns are somewhat allayed after reading this post and doing some experimentation. If someone comes out with a camera with the HV20 imagery, and the GS400 controls...look out. After getting used to that "consumer" cam's manual controls, the HV20 is a bit of a disappointment. In any case, I placed the HV20 in shutter priority mode (TV), pressed the joystick to bring up EXP and toggled it on. I went from -11 to +11 and then observed the aperture blades directly looking through the lens both with an LED headlamp, and then at an angle with overhead light. It is very apparent that the gradient will vary depending on the auto exposure level the camera has dialed in when you engage exposure control. Based on my initial observations, here is what I would suggest for adapter use shooting 24P. 1. Set zebras at 70% 2. Set camera to 24P mode 3. Switch to TV mode, and set at 1/48s 4. Frame a shot so about 50% of the frame is displaying zebras. This is so the cam is neither fully gained up, or fully stopped down. It's just an approx. baseline. 5. Press joystick and toggle EXP on. 6. At this point here is a rough guide to what the EXP settings correspond to. -11 = Aperture 80% closed, ND2 fully engaged. -6 = Aperture 80% closed, ND2 full disengaged, ND1 visible. 0 = Apeture fully closed, ND1 disengaged completely. +5 = Aperture 50% open. +11 = Aperture 100% open. If you engage EXP with TV on and shutter at 1/48s but the cam pointed zoomed in on a light, you'll see 100% aperture closed, and I'd guess 100% ND filter engagement too. I have the flip solution sorted for the HV20 ... pics to come later :-)