Smooth iMovie/FCP HD HDV Workflow

Kaku Ito · February 6th, 2005, 07:01 PM

After adopting Nate's explanation about 1440 x 1080, I'm doing fine with DecklinkHD. DecklinkHD displays AIC clips through its display out. But when you do something like placing transition, it would hang up.

So, I export the project to Blackmagic HD JPG, edit and apply it back to the AIC again. This works well.

Heath McKnight · February 6th, 2005, 08:26 PM

So I have to switch the codec, huh? And export how? As a QT movie or a QT compression?

heath

Kaku Ito · February 6th, 2005, 08:40 PM

As Frederic mentioned, it is faster to use "media manager" to convert the project. Caputer footage with iMovieHD, read it in with FCPHD, place them on a timeline with 1920 x 1080 AIC codec, make offline with media manger at Blackmagic JPG HD if you have DecklinkHD. It does all of the necessary resizing for you. Then after editing with JPG HD, use media manager again to convert the project to AIC, relocated and show the original AIC clips.

Kaku Ito · February 6th, 2005, 08:45 PM

Maybe, I should make a new thread for this topic alone.

Davi Dortas · February 7th, 2005, 04:06 PM

It rumored FCP HD will edit HDV natively? I not like all this HDV --> AIC confusions.

Kaku Ito · February 7th, 2005, 07:38 PM

Davi,

When Apple release FCPHD which is compatible with HDV, the issues mentioned in this thread will most likely be solved.

The rumour is FCPHD to use AIC.

Dylan Pank · February 8th, 2005, 04:27 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Davi Dortas : It rumored FCP HD will edit HDV natively? I not like all this HDV --> AIC confusions. -->>>

FCP HD will almost certainly use the AIC method.

If you want to online HDV natively, there is LumiereHD.

Graeme Nattress · February 8th, 2005, 09:07 AM

Native editing, in my mind, would be to use the HDV MPEG2 codec on the timeline and have FCP able to do MPEG2 magic like the free software for the pc that comes with the JVC camera. I don't think this is going to happen, but I'm concerned about the quality of the AIC codec - anyone done any tests to see how good or bad it is??

What I'm hoping the AIC does is leave the I-frames of the HDV as compressed I-frames,, and also use them to decode the P and B frames back to I frames, and then store them, if you know what I mean. I don't know if that's how MPEG2 works - do you have to fully decode a P and B frame back to image data and recompress to something else or is there a state between being fully compressed and fully decompressed where the frame is independent like an I frame? Dunno...

Graeme

Kaku Ito · February 8th, 2005, 08:09 PM

Graeme,

I will provide the files very soon.

Dylan Pank · February 9th, 2005, 05:24 AM

Graeme,

I've been meaning to say (off topic) for you to say Hello to Wendy for me. As you probably know wendy and I were at York Uni, Ontario together for a year about a decade ago. I wish you both (belatedly) the best of luck with your new(ish) baby.

To the matter in hand. You can get MPEG2 (or MPEG4) onto the FCP timeline, it'll just always be unrendered, even without effects. However this timeline can be rendered out/exported, which is what I meant by native online.

Has anyone been able to extract MPEG2 I frames and figure exactly how big they are?

Any chance you'd be able to do the rather nifty difference test with a GOP of HDV and AIC that you did with Pixlet and PHOTOjpeg in your kenstone.net SheerVideo review? Unfortunately there do seem to be reports that there are additional artifacts in AIC as compared to native HDV

Graeme Nattress · February 9th, 2005, 07:30 AM

Thanks Dylan. Wendy says hello!

I've found that putting MPEG on the FCP timeline causes problems. It might be fine for a cuts only edit, but for more complex stuff FCP does weirdness and that can hurt.

I'm finding that just editing HDV seems to break it quite quickly. I don't know what Sony were using to edit their clips for the presentation, but the presented stuff didn't look too hot. The raw clips I converted myself to uncompressed look best, but I still see stuff in them. The AIC is, indeed, looking crumbly....

Graeme

Frederic Lumiere · February 11th, 2005, 09:21 AM

So it looks like AIC introduces many compression artifacts. I've done some digging around trying to see if iMovie caches the transport stream before demuxing it and encoding it to AIC but no success.

Many of our customers are now saying that they prefer to keep using Lumiere HD because it allows you to preserve the quality better or encode to a 4:2:2 HD codec directly from the M2T.

Furthermoe, it looks like there is no way to choose better than 'medium' quality when exporting a timeline from FCP (You can from QT Pro).

We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow.

More on that soon...

Frederic

Heath McKnight · February 11th, 2005, 10:22 AM

Frederic had me make a QT movie in 10 bit uncompressed, then open the QT movie and save it as an AIC at Best quality. However, when I did the first QT movie (10 bit uncompressed), I noticed that the image was stretched out vertically. I will now save as an AIC at best quality and see if it "flattens" out properly.

heath

Murad Toor · February 11th, 2005, 06:12 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow. -->>>

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! This is great news.

Hopefully Apple will do their part and iron out the MPEG2 audio sync issue. HDV start/stop detection would be a nice addition.

Filip Kovcin · February 11th, 2005, 06:48 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow.More on that soon... -->>>

what about TC support? will it be here?

filip

February 6th, 2005, 08:26 PM	#62
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	So I have to switch the codec, huh? And export how? As a QT movie or a QT compression? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 8th, 2005, 09:07 AM	#68
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Native editing, in my mind, would be to use the HDV MPEG2 codec on the timeline and have FCP able to do MPEG2 magic like the free software for the pc that comes with the JVC camera. I don't think this is going to happen, but I'm concerned about the quality of the AIC codec - anyone done any tests to see how good or bad it is?? What I'm hoping the AIC does is leave the I-frames of the HDV as compressed I-frames,, and also use them to decode the P and B frames back to I frames, and then store them, if you know what I mean. I don't know if that's how MPEG2 works - do you have to fully decode a P and B frame back to image data and recompress to something else or is there a state between being fully compressed and fully decompressed where the frame is independent like an I frame? Dunno... Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 9th, 2005, 07:30 AM	#71
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Thanks Dylan. Wendy says hello! I've found that putting MPEG on the FCP timeline causes problems. It might be fine for a cuts only edit, but for more complex stuff FCP does weirdness and that can hurt. I'm finding that just editing HDV seems to break it quite quickly. I don't know what Sony were using to edit their clips for the presentation, but the presented stuff didn't look too hot. The raw clips I converted myself to uncompressed look best, but I still see stuff in them. The AIC is, indeed, looking crumbly.... Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

February 11th, 2005, 10:22 AM	#73
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Frederic had me make a QT movie in 10 bit uncompressed, then open the QT movie and save it as an AIC at Best quality. However, when I did the first QT movie (10 bit uncompressed), I noticed that the image was stretched out vertically. I will now save as an AIC at best quality and see if it "flattens" out properly. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 11th, 2005, 06:48 PM	#75
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow.More on that soon... -->>> what about TC support? will it be here? filip __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 6th, 2005, 07:01 PM	#61
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	After adopting Nate's explanation about 1440 x 1080, I'm doing fine with DecklinkHD. DecklinkHD displays AIC clips through its display out. But when you do something like placing transition, it would hang up. So, I export the project to Blackmagic HD JPG, edit and apply it back to the AIC again. This works well.

February 6th, 2005, 08:40 PM	#63
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	As Frederic mentioned, it is faster to use "media manager" to convert the project. Caputer footage with iMovieHD, read it in with FCPHD, place them on a timeline with 1920 x 1080 AIC codec, make offline with media manger at Blackmagic JPG HD if you have DecklinkHD. It does all of the necessary resizing for you. Then after editing with JPG HD, use media manager again to convert the project to AIC, relocated and show the original AIC clips.

February 6th, 2005, 08:45 PM	#64
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Maybe, I should make a new thread for this topic alone.

February 7th, 2005, 04:06 PM	#65
Davi Dortas Membership Suspended Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 78	It rumored FCP HD will edit HDV natively? I not like all this HDV --> AIC confusions.

February 7th, 2005, 07:38 PM	#66
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Davi, When Apple release FCPHD which is compatible with HDV, the issues mentioned in this thread will most likely be solved. The rumour is FCPHD to use AIC.

February 8th, 2005, 04:27 AM	#67
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	<<<-- Originally posted by Davi Dortas : It rumored FCP HD will edit HDV natively? I not like all this HDV --> AIC confusions. -->>> FCP HD will almost certainly use the AIC method. If you want to online HDV natively, there is LumiereHD.

February 8th, 2005, 08:09 PM	#69
Kaku Ito Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo Posts: 1,382	Graeme, I will provide the files very soon.

February 9th, 2005, 05:24 AM	#70
Dylan Pank Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 611	Graeme, I've been meaning to say (off topic) for you to say Hello to Wendy for me. As you probably know wendy and I were at York Uni, Ontario together for a year about a decade ago. I wish you both (belatedly) the best of luck with your new(ish) baby. To the matter in hand. You can get MPEG2 (or MPEG4) onto the FCP timeline, it'll just always be unrendered, even without effects. However this timeline can be rendered out/exported, which is what I meant by native online. Has anyone been able to extract MPEG2 I frames and figure exactly how big they are? Any chance you'd be able to do the rather nifty difference test with a GOP of HDV and AIC that you did with Pixlet and PHOTOjpeg in your kenstone.net SheerVideo review? Unfortunately there do seem to be reports that there are additional artifacts in AIC as compared to native HDV

February 11th, 2005, 09:21 AM	#72
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	So it looks like AIC introduces many compression artifacts. I've done some digging around trying to see if iMovie caches the transport stream before demuxing it and encoding it to AIC but no success. Many of our customers are now saying that they prefer to keep using Lumiere HD because it allows you to preserve the quality better or encode to a 4:2:2 HD codec directly from the M2T. Furthermoe, it looks like there is no way to choose better than 'medium' quality when exporting a timeline from FCP (You can from QT Pro). We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow. More on that soon... Frederic

February 11th, 2005, 06:12 PM	#74
Murad Toor Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 125	<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow. -->>> Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! This is great news. Hopefully Apple will do their part and iron out the MPEG2 audio sync issue. HDV start/stop detection would be a nice addition.