4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

[Wayne Morellini]

<<<-- Originally posted by Ronald Biese : Dear Obin

sonds amazing the Alta news really !!!

Dear Wayne

Shifting all three sounds crazy but why not - crazy does not mean can't be done.
-->>>

Ronald, I wish more people thought like you, then they would explore all credible avenues rather than being desmissive.

Have a look at the technical thread, I have started a new thread, about the uncompressed output of the Sony HDV, and the rerogramming JVC HD1/10 and PD10 to 24fps, Hi-res output discussions:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36574

Originally posted by Ronald Biese :
> found once a small portable fuelcell doing 320 W

How much?

> looking for a small mobo with PCIx

There are many links to them in the threads.

> to have the mobo with the disks in something shaped like a
> 35mm film magazine could be

Yes, nice styling, my thought, I was almost going to suggest it for the drake system, with a magazine like magazine, and styling/control like film flash film camera, very comfortable.

I think the possiblity we have here is to break away from the old ways and do it better, no guessing/estimating what the film see's, through the veiwfinder, here we can process the film and see it instantly ;) we almost instantly know if there is a porblem with the sensor/image etc. Makes it much easier for low end/new indie person.

Wayne.

[Obin Olson]

just a little X-mas fun..no I did not shoot it ;)

http://www.wimp.com/pleasure/

[Obin Olson]

Performance of the Dothan CPU looks good..Looks like we can display color 1080p 24fps and record it to disk..Over the next few days I will be getting updates from my programmer as he is working on the hardware we will be using in the camera...I will keep everyone posted as the news comes in..if I get a chance I will post more clips as we go along...

[Jason Rodriguez]

Was that preview and recording with or without an external AGP card (I remember you saying that you needed AGP to make things work right)?

Also what board are you currently using?

[Obin Olson]

Jason;


we are not using the AGP and things are working fine..still looks like we will NOT get 1080P 24fps 10bit from this system because the pci 32bit buss is not fast enough..I am hoping and waiting for Epix to release the 64bit card..it's now months overdue so I hope anyday we will see one..untill then we are going to keep working on the small details with our software...arggg!! I can't stand it! EPIX WAKE UP!

[Jason Rodriguez]

So you're just using the embedded 855GME graphics without an extra AGP card, and that's displaying everything just fine (all 24fps and no dropped frames?)

[Obin Olson]

Jason: yes so far so good with the 855gme chipset Jason I will tell you you can't capture 1080p 24fps on a standard pci board..bandwidth issues of the pci buss..I will have a 64bit pci card soon for captures and this should clear all the issues..

Everyone :

As it stands we have no support for editing in 10bit .
How would everyone feel about treating the RAW files like film and going through a DI process like film with color grading taking place in a DI file maybe jpg2000 10bit 1080P and then after the color and gamma work is done dumping down to 1080P 8bit and doing the edits on that..at this point right now we have few options to edit in 10bit. This way we can keep the super quality and dynamic rane of 10bit for the color work and edit in any app with the 8bit video files with or without compression..Vegas will do it Premiere will do it anything that supports the codec of your choice ... does this sound like an ok starting workflow?

I know this is not the best solution but it would work I think and it's easer then working with film IMHO and MUCH cheaper!!

A buddy of mine is buying a Panasonic VariCam Lens Deck ...$105,000...if only I could talk him into 1/2 or even 1/4 that cash for this project!!!!!

[Jason Rodriguez]

Obin, what you're talking about isn't such a bad thing. It's the pathway that multi-million dollar Hollywood features are done in.

Trying to have all your HD footage online while you do what is basically an offline edit seems a bit rediculous to me, and that's me talking as a film-editor (which I do). I never, ever keep my original files online, not unless it's DV or something super-compressed like that. And even then, for instance, I'm working on a documentary between other projects that has 45 hours of source material. There is NO WAY I'm going to work with 45 hours of HD material online. Not right now at least. And this doc was shot on DV. I'm doing the edit in a 20:1 Photo-JPEG compression codec, and I'm getting all 45 hours in 50GB! So I have the whole doc on a little hard-drive. It's very nice, and very convenient, and when I need a higher-quality version, I simply re-digitize the source tapes.

Having to do that with your camera footage only makes sense. It's absolutely stupid for you to waste your time color-correcting footage when you're shooting at a 10:1 or greater shooting ratio. Just stupid. You can do it if you want, but you're totally wasting your time. There's a reason that the film industry does things the way they do it. It's cause it works. So basically all you should be doing is editing with a gamma corrected/color balanced "daily" or "one-light" of your footage (which can be very compressed), and then go back and online with the 10-bit files and a very nice color-correction.

Now I don't mean to denegrate anybody on this list, but sometimes I get the feeling that nobody around here has edited a full feature-length movie or worked as an assistant on one. If you had you wouldn't be talking about this panecea of having HD10-bit color-corrected finalized pieces to work with, and you wouldn't be complaining so much about the offline/online process. Again, not to down anybody, but go out and edit a 1 1/2 hour feature, and then throw away 95% of the footage, and see if you'll like taking up gobs of HD space, taking up hours of color-correction, etc. for footage you will NEVER USE.

There's a reason the film industry uses the offline/online process and why software packages like AVID, FCP (a little bit), Discreet, etc. are so popular, and Vegas, Premiere Pro, etc. aren't at this point in time. These software packages are rock-solid at offline/online, and this is the process that has proved to be the most time-efficient and least-costly while maximizing the ability to let your creativity flow.

You don't need an editing package that can handle 10-bit footage. What you do need is an editing package that can export your edit successfully and accurately to another package that has the ability to handle your 10-bit files and online in that package. And you need software that is very adept at media management (this is a biggie).

Anyways, that's just my .02 cents.

[Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn]

well, I feel the same as you Jason.
I've been working on almost 10 feature length films up to now as an on stage technician (and actor sometimes :) ).
I've done edition, I've been on shooting location as Video Engineer, I've used DaVinci's, Spirits and Ursa Diamonds, I've done color grading, I have experience with Cameras from A-minima up to Arri 535 and 435 ( I have a Mitchell camera myself).I have more than 5 years experience on Video to 35mm transfers, I've done sound capture, correction and edition, I have restored some old footage (digitally), I have developed a film scanner and a film recorder.
So I guess sometimes we (everybody on this forum) aren't talking the same language... :(
But this is the way life is so don't need to worry....

[Wayne Morellini]

Well, Merry Christmas guys.

Was trying to post this last night, but the thread was playing up. For the day after Christmass:

Was just reading for the last couple of days, but I have to say I agree with you Jason.

What about this:

Producing compressedf/lower resolution quick and nasty version for editing. Used day by day to draft edit, to check, cull and condense to footage needed, and produce a draft edit info file. Eventually this is used to do master versions. We then take the master edit info file and run it like a batch process through X program on the actual Raw footage to auto produce a edited condensed Raw Master version for colour correction etc.

Or should it be simpler?

[Obin Olson]

Thank you Jason..I am glad to hear what you said.What if you could have SheerVIdeoo 10bit online files at a rate of maybe 20-30MB/sec for 24fps 1080p 10bit?

what if I could dump from RAW to codec like that? or maybe the thing to do is dump to Sheervideo 10bit at FULL RESOLUTION AND at the same time dump to sheervideo HEAVY compression and a frame size of 720x480 for the "offline"..Jason do you think if I had an automatic gamma set at the dump from raw to offline it would be good enough for the edit?

[Eliot Mack]

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez :
You don't need an editing package that can handle 10-bit footage. What you do need is an editing package that can export your edit successfully and accurately to another package that has the ability to handle your 10-bit files and online in that package. And you need software that is very adept at media management (this is a biggie).
-->>>

Some of the discussion comes from different potential uses. For example, I'm interested in uncompressed 10 bit HD acquisition for keying and compositing work, where most shots will need quite a bit of tweaking. Most compositing and color correcting will be handled in a specialty compositor, but it's nice to do final color correcting in an editor as one can easily apply a change to dozens of clips at once instead of firing up Shake and modifying scripts.

Getting rid of a EDL export/batch redigitize step, and being able to directly export from a desktop NLE to H.264 or WM9 is very convenient for many of us interested in HD authoring. I understand the offline/online workflow, but not everyone has access to a Nitris.

Avid's desktop HD solution is supposed to ship tomorrow, which should be useful. http://www.avid.com/products/xpressprohd/ If the DNxHD codecs work as advertised, they will provide 6:1 compressed 10 bit HD editing & compositing without artifacting. We'll know soon.

Eliot

[Jason Rodriguez]

Jason do you think if I had an automatic gamma set at the dump from raw to offline it would be good enough for the edit?

Definitely . . . :-) You may want to add a default white-balance too, like either one for 3200K and one for 5600K (sunlight and tungsten). But that's really all you need for offline dailies.

Eliot, I do agree with you on the online files for compositing, but again the problem is that most "editing" packages, even FCP, don't support greater than 8-bit in RGB space, whereas compositing packages can go up to 32-bit floating-point in that all-important RGB colorspace. FCP will go up to 32-bit per channel in YUV, but we're not really dealing with YUV codecs unless you're playing around with SheerVideo like Obin.

Every other package without some plug-in codec modifier is just 8-bit internal rendering for both YUV and RGB, and it's not going to be enough to play around with RAW files to their fullest potential.

[Eliot Mack]

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez :
Eliot, I do agree with you on the online files for compositing, but again the problem is that most "editing" packages, even FCP, don't support greater than 8-bit in RGB space, whereas compositing packages can go up to 32-bit floating-point in that all-important RGB colorspace. FCP will go up to 32-bit per channel in YUV, but we're not really dealing with YUV codecs unless you're playing around with SheerVideo like Obin.

Every other package without some plug-in codec modifier is just 8-bit internal rendering for both YUV and RGB, and it's not going to be enough to play around with RAW files to their fullest potential. -->>>

The abovementioned Avid Express HD seems to be doing internal calculations at 10 bit precision, at least according to the online specs. I'll reserve final judgement for the shipping product, but that should be sufficient for final color tweaks and most finishing tasks. The heavy lifting should be done in a compositing package anyway.

The other problem with offline work and VFX shots is that many problems (matte chatter and bad edges, small tracking slips, etc.) don't show up until you are looking at the thing in high resolution on a reasonably large screen, at which point they become painfully obvious. I'm trying to figure out a workflow that enables me to identify potential bugs as soon as possible, as frantically re-rendering a bunch of multilayer composites at the last minute is not my idea of fun.

One way or another, we'll get to find out all the answers as the cameras and software become available. I think there is sort of a 'bandwidth pain threshold', for me anyway. If I need a RAID to edit final quality HD, a proxy looks tempting. If, however, I can edit a compressed-but-final-quality HD stream, that fits within the bandwidth of a single drive, I'll do it :)

Eliot

[Obin Olson]

thanks guys for the thoughts..I will have a FCP box in a day or 2 and I sure as SH*t will have SheerVideo on that box ASAP and see how things work in the SHEER 10bit YUV codec under FCP I will report back then..in the meantime I am awaiting the 64bit capture card for our camera